"Faithful Steed" Champion Feat

[kaironfeelgood]

Hi all,

First post here so forgive me if I've overlooked something or made a faux pas.

I've been browsing the rules in Player Core 2 and I'm a bit baffled by "Faithful Steed", a Level 1 Champion feat. Below is the relevant passage.

"You gain the service of a young animal companion as a mount. [...] Typically, the steed is an animal companion with the mount ability (such as a horse)."

I also note the rules for YOUNG animal companions show that they are one size lower than their mature variant. A young horse is a Medium size creature, and a young dog is a small creature.

The rules for the MOUNT action are, "You are adjacent to a creature that is at least one size larger than you and is willing to be your mount."

So... if a Human Champion picks the Faithful Steed feat, and chooses a Young Horse, it can't mount it until the animal can mature (at player level 6). The same for a Halfling or Goblin who chooses a dog or a wolf.

Is this correct, or am I missing something? It just seems very punishing to not allow the player to mount the, uh, mount that the feat let them chose!

[Tactical Drongo]

It is probably a little oversight in the wording

usually if a feat gives you explicitly a mount they start at their full size

[Kelseus]

There is nothing in the rules for Young Animal Companions that say the animal is one size smaller. the Horse is listed as a animal companion in Player Core as either medium or large. When you hit level 6 you can just handwave the size change.

[TheFinish]

I think you're confusing the fact that Mature Animal Companions grow if they're Medium or smaller (so a Small Wolf goes Medium) with their starting sizes.

A Horse animal companion that starts Large will remain Large throughout it's entire life, whether young, mature, and anything afterwards.

If you choose a Medium Horse companion, they grow to Large when they become Mature.

EDIT: Wanted to add, for Halflings/Goblins who want to ride dogs/wolves, the Cavalier archetype allows companions that start Small to instead start at Medium precisely because of this. I'm surprised Faithful Steed doesn't have the same language, since there's 0 mechanical differences between Small and Medium creatures except in this instance (and when they have to Squeeze, I guess.)

[Super Zero]

The listed size is for a young animal companion, since that's the starting companion.

Player Core pg 206 wrote:

The following are the base statistics for a young animal companion, the first animal companion most characters get.

Horse companions start your choice of Medium or Large. Most Mount companions start Large or give you the option. Wolf companions indeed start Small, but they don't have the Mount ability anyway.

Mature animal companions don't grow if they're Large.

Player Core pg 211 wrote:

If your companion is Medium or smaller, it grows by one size.

Nimble companions don't grow again. Savage ones don't grow if they're Large.

Player Core pg 211 wrote:

If your companion is Medium or smaller, it grows by one size.

[doktorJung]

Is there a good way to end up with a mature mount that's still medium? Start with a small, ridable mount from a source that doesn't require it to be larger than you (like Animal Companion from Druid or Ranger, or Faithful Steed from Champion), and then advance it to medium when it matures? I think a wolf for a Goblin with Rough Rider may be one of the few small companions with the Mount ability.

[kaironfeelgood]

Thanks folks, I definitely got a little confused on the Animal Companion rules:

- You get a "Young" Animal Companion
- When a "Young" animal companion matures, it raises a size increment if it is Medium or smaller

However, "Faithful Steed" still lacks the language of the Cavalier dedication, so I feel like it could use that caveat.

I also note that the Prairie Rider Lvl 1 Halfling Feat makes explicit reference to Riding Dogs, and you can rent/buy a Riding Dog companion, but rules as written, there are no Dogs or Wolves with the Mount feat, and you can't choose a riding dog as an Animal Companion. Little bit disappointing (unless you do some home rule fun).

[Dr. Frank Funkelstein]

You can ride animal companions without the mount trait, the trait means its "especially suited for riding" and ignores some restrictions (only land speed, no move+support).

[Super Zero]

The animal companion options aren't necessarily supposed to be specific creatures. The "Wolf" companion can be a large dog--though no, it won't be big enough to ride for a Small character until it reaches mature.

One of the first example characters for PF2 was a druid with a Wolf companion who was a poodle.

[Gortle]

TheFinish wrote:

If you choose a Medium Horse companion, they grow to Large when they become Mature.

Which is an annoying feature. There are plently of people who don't want their mount to increase in size. Given it was already large enough for them to ride.

Then there is the fact that some clases get their animal companion feats and features till later. Druid and Beastmaster, get them faster, Ranger is slower. Most importantly Champions mount don't get their free move till the level 10 feat where as Beastmaster gets it at level 4. There are some minor different abilities but nothing worth that wait. It remains a mostly bad idea to take a Champions mount with their in class feats, instead of via a Beastmaster archetype.