I have a player claiming that the ability Bonded Book permits a 1st level character to cast a 9th level spell once per day without any components because it's a (Sp) ability. Is this how this works?
For Reference:
Bonded Book (Sp)
A Poleiheira adherent forms a bond with a spellbook. This bonded book becomes intrinsically tied to a Poleiheira adherent’s conscious and subconscious mind. The book always opens to the right page, and she can record any number of spells and other information in her bonded book—when she turns pages, more blank pages appear. Other wizards find it difficult to read the book, which displays information in a seemingly random order: the DC of all Spellcraft checks to copy or prepare spells from the book increases by 10.
Each time a Poleiheira adherent attains a new wizard level, she gains four spells (rather than two) to add to the bonded book. The cost and time requirement for writing a new spell into the book are halved. The time to prepare spells is reduced to one third (20 minutes to prepare all spells, and 5 minutes to prepare up to one quarter of her spells). Once per day while holding the book in one hand, she can use it to cast any one spell she has written in the bonded book, even if the spell is not prepared.
A Poleiheira adherent can replace a lost or destroyed bonded book in the same manner as a bonded item. The new bonded book retains a number of spells per spell level equal to the Poleiheira adherent’s Intelligence modifier from the previous bonded book, as well as all the mundane information that was recorded in the previous bonded book. If a Poleiheira adherent replaces her bonded book or dies, the previous book reverts to an ordinary blank spellbook.
RAW it may read that way, but at least RAI it should be fairly obvious that you cant cast a 9th level spell as a first level PC.
I think what it meant is, that she can use her arcane bond/the book bond do cast any spell and is not restricted by: Cant cast spell from the wizard’s opposition schools.
And a wizard has to cast this spell normal (including material components) and not as a SP.
If you are the GM just tell the player its not RAI and that its a wording oversight of the staff.
That shouldnt be that hard to argue, that you should never be able to cast a 9th level spell as a 1rst level character.
For the unlikely case that the PC doesnt want to understand that, you could always have the enemy be the same class and cast 9th level spells yourself.
Nothing faster to get a player to drop a loophole than using it as a GM against them.
Your PC will understand that the ability doesnt work that way, when he loses initiative and gets hit by a Power Word kill, with no Save, and HP he cant possible reach for the next few levels.
The answer is no. If further clarification is needed the answer is "don't be an idiot." If that is insufficient explanation the final clarification is "door's thataway, use it."
As she can't understand and write spells beyond the level of spells she can cast, i don't see how she add one to her book.
"Each time a Poleiheira adherent attains a new wizard level, she gains four spells (rather than two)"
- the two spells gained are only up to a spell level she can cast as per the normal spellbook wizard's ability.
the ability change somewhat the spellbook ability a normal wizard get:
wizard spellbook:
"Spellbooks: A wizard must study his spellbook each day to prepare his spells. He cannot prepare any spell not recorded in his spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory.
A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his prohibited schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice. The wizard also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook. At each new wizard level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new wizard level) for his spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards' spellbooks to his own (see Magic)."
also:
"Once per day while holding the book in one hand, she can use it to cast any one spell she has written in the bonded book.."
-she must be the one who write the spell in so she can't even pay someone else to have him write it in for her. (well she can but the ability won't work).
As she can't understand and write spells beyond the level of spells she can cast, i don't see how she add one to her book.
"Each time a Poleiheira adherent attains a new wizard level, she gains four spells (rather than two)"
- the two spells gained are only up to a spell level she can cast.
also:
"Once per day while holding the book in one hand, she can use it to cast any one spell she has written in the bonded book.."
-she must be the one who write the spell in so she can't even pay someone else to have him write it in for her. (well she can but the ability won't work)
A wizard can write new spells into their spellbook by copying them from another wizard’s spellbook or a scroll. You just have to pass a Spellcraft check. There is no limit to the level of spell a wizard can add this way.
seem like an oversight when they wrote the magic chapter. in older versions of D&D a wizard couldn't add spells of a level he can't cast.
In pathfinder they wrote that in the basic free spells he get, and it seem like they never double checked to write it in the part where he gain spells from other source.
but going with the ruling of 'similar abilities should work the same' (even if the writer missed a bit) from back here i'd say it is well in line to have it work the same here. if adding free spells he didn't have to pay for or steal from others are limited to spells he can cast, adding others by paying\stealing them should also have the same limit.
- how he gain them should have no bearing on his ability to add them.
this ability combine the abilities of the wizard's 'bounded item' and 'spellbook'. those abilities for a normal wizard work only for spells he can cast (the ability to cast a spell once per day that the bonded item give and the ability to add spells every level for free). it should follow the same rules.
also, if the only way this archtype can cast 9th level spells is by finding a 9th level spell and add it to his spell book. even if the gm would be hard on RAW all he need to do is deny the wizard access to 9th level spell to begin with. it's not like level 17 wizards are that common. nor are their spellbook and scrolls easy to get to.
A wizard can write new spells into their spellbook by copying them from another wizard’s spellbook or a scroll. You just have to pass a Spellcraft check. There is no limit to the level of spell a wizard can add this way.
Thats true.
Doesnt change the fact that cant cast them.
As said, RAW its an oversight in the wording.
RAI its fairly clear to NOT cast a 9th level spell as a first level PC:
Its obviously a better arcane bond, in that you can even cast spells of your oppisition school.
Which is really strong if you think about it.
You dont even need two spell slots for it, you just need your once a day ability/spell.
Opposition school: Abjuration? At level 15 you can cast mind blank as your once a day spell. You dont have to use your 2! (if your Int is 26 or higher) only spell slots of the day.
Thats the advantage of this class ability.
In all other aspects it has to follow the normal arcane bond restrictions.
You need to have the casting time, the material component, the sufficiant Int (16 for 6th level spells, 19 for 9th level spells) and the sufficiant level (so level 15 for 8th level spells and level 17 for 9th level spells).
You can use metamagic as long as the spells level doesnt get higher than the highest spell level you can cast.
I definitely agree that by RAI the spell should follow all normal casting rules meaning having a CL high enough to cast the spell and needing all the components. Unfortunately the argument is solely over the RAW. Obviously I told the player I’d never let that fly at my table but he insists it should work.
RAW they sadly let a wording slip as far as I can see.
A wizard is allowed to write a 9th level spell (if they find a suficiant scroll or spell book) in his spell book.
And RAW it is written that he can cast one spell he has written into his spell book once a day without preparing it.
The only thing you can mention it, that its clearly the same as an arcane bond feature, so its not a Sp, its a normal spell.
Even the normal arcane bond is a Sp, but you cast the spell as a spell, not as a Sp. The Sp it that it allows you to cast this spell, but the spell is cast as a spell.
Doesnt change that much, just changes, that he needs to use material components (so no wish).
So you could say:
"Yes they made a mistake in the wording. They clearly ment it to be like the normal arcane bond, but thought that every inteligent being would know not to cast a 9th level spell at first level, so we play as RAI. You can only cast spells you can cast"
"RAW is RAW and the Nr 1 rule is, its my table, you cant a 9th level spell as a 1rst level PC, because thats RAI and I play it as RAI"
or
"Ok if you think its a good idea to let a first level PC cast one 9th level spell per day, we can to it. Just remember, your enemies can do that too." And their first encounter are three wizards with this archtyp and a lot of cool spells in their spellbook.
Like Cloudkill (for a VERY fast TPK) or Power Word: Kill, do just kill his PC or Imprisonment (so they need another 9th level spell (freedom) to get his PC back or energy drain (just a more fancy Power Word kill) or Meteor Swarm (to kill the whole town they where visiting).
All of the above with a much more polite wording please.
So much ideas. *evil grin*
He will be the first to scream "Unfair" if his PC dies to a Power Word kill in the first encounter. You than can say to him:" Well its only played as RAW, I wanted to play it RAI, but you insisted."
As said, nothing gets a player faster down to earth than using a loophole/oversight against them.
I only had to use that one time. I can't remember what exactly but it was like:" Well we could play like this, but I dont think you would want to play against that loophole. However if its legal, a few NPC will use it, why not its stronger than everything else."
After a very short thought he realised that I was right and he shouldnt abuse the loophole. It luckily never came up again.
I have a player claiming that the ability Bonded Book permits a 1st level character to cast a 9th level spell once per day without any components because it's a (Sp) ability. Is this how this works?
The fault lies in just reading the archetype and pointedly ignoring what the wizard class says. Casting is limited. duh. RAI has nothing to do with it.
Learning a spell with a level is Spell Level restricted to what the PC can cast. Learning a spell from an NPC, book, scroll, etc requires access to it (GM controlled and additional gold cost) and a Check, then scribing (time and gold) but no SplLvl limit (part of the Check). So it is possible to learn & scribe a spell that you cannot normally cast (preloading your learned & scribed list and I'm the only person I know of in 20+ yrs of gaming to do that).
Could the archetype get around the casting limitation due to poor wording? Again it is a mix of RAW wizard and archetype text. A (standard) GM would never approve a reading that would allow a wizard to cast a spell of a spell level he could not normally cast for free, see consumables and activating a scroll the character could not normally cast.
I assume you don't run wizards. Please read the wizard class.
The real negative to the archetype is the part about crafting your bonded object into a magic item at half cost is missing. Then holding a book fills a hand with a non-weapon non-buckler non-magic item(it is just a mwk book)... Then no arcane school (univ, specialist).
from Wizard class
Arcane Bond (Ex or Sp): {Para 3} A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the wizard, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the wizard's level. This spell cannot be modified by metamagic feats or other abilities. The bonded object cannot be used to cast spells from the wizard's opposition schools (see arcane school).
capable of casting & other effects dependent upon the wizard's level. That means has a spell slot.
otherwise simply never allow access to an inappropriate arcane spell source.
Blood of the Ancients is from the PPC line and known to be error prone.
don't forget to pick the trait that specifically mention earth breaker and give +2 to intimidate when wielding a two-handed melee weapon:
- Thunder and Fang Performer - enjoy!
I assume you don't run wizards. Please read the wizard class.
I’ve played plenty of wizards just never one with a Bonded Object. All my PF1e wizards have always been Exploiter Pact wizards. Thank you for the insight here as that original wording on bonded item is very helpful.
update: Stacking FAQ I see. As the [non-PFS]Pact wizard(HHH) alters spellcasting I'm not sure it stacks with anything but YMMV. I use the PFS rules in general so that archetype is out of scope.
[qzote=Azothath]rom Wizard class
Arcane Bond (Ex or Sp): {Para 3} A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the wizard, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the wizard's level. This spell cannot be modified by metamagic feats or other abilities. The bonded object cannot be used to cast spells from the wizard's opposition schools (see arcane school).
The problem is that the PA doesnt alter, it replaces arcane bond.
So it doesnt matter what arcane bond says at all.
If i have a wizard archtyp that says:
"You ignore every arcane spell failure chance from armor.
This replaces the normal Weapon and Armor Proficiency of the wizard"
You would ignore what the normal wizard says about spell failure chance. You would only look at the archtyp.
Same here.
The PA gets a ability instead of arcane bond (so RAW it has nothing to do with arcane bond anymore) that works like a slightly (RAI)/much more (RAW) better arcane bond.
RAI its totally clear that the meant, it works like an arcane bond, but has slight improvments.
However RAW they made an oversight.
As it is written: "Once per day while holding the book in one hand, she can use it to cast any one spell she has written in the bonded book, even if the spell is not prepared."
Without any further restrictions (the normal resrtictions for arcane bond are implied through RAI and should be used, but RAW their are no restrictions) you can cast a 9th level spell if he is in your spellbook.
Power Word Kill is written in my spellbook? Yes.
Have I used that ability today? No.
Is my spellbook in my hand? yes.
Than I can cast Power Word kill.
And every wizard can write every spell down in his spellbook if he finds a scrool to copy it from.
HOWEVER I just found (while writting this post) another argument.
You clearly cast a spell:
"[...] can use it to CAST any one spell [...].
And:
Core Rulebook - Magic wrote:
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
If you cast a spell (which you clearly do) you need to have a caster level which works for the spell.
Power Word Kill is a 9th level spell, so you need to have a caster level of Wizard 17 to cast it.
You arent allowed to cast it any less.
So even a Wizard 25 has to cast Power Word Kill with a caster level from 17 to 25 (you can select less than 17 and no more than your caster level)
So RAW a Wizard 15 with items/feats that give him +2 to his caster level, would be able to cast a 9th level spell.
That would mean as long as he doesnt have this items or spell specialisation for one specific spell you cant to much more with this abiliy even if you read it stricly RAW.
So RAI it clearly has the restrictions of a normal arcane bond.
Only RAW yes he can cast higher spells IF (and thats a big IF) his caster level is high enough for the spell he wants to cast.
HOWEVER I just found (while writting this post) another argument.
You clearly cast a spell:
"[...] can use it to CAST any one spell [...].
And:
Core Rulebook - Magic wrote:
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
If you cast a spell (which you clearly do) you need to have a caster level which works for the spell.
Power Word Kill is a 9th level spell, so you need to have a caster level of Wizard 17 to cast it.
You arent allowed to cast it any less.
So even a Wizard 25 has to cast Power Word Kill with a caster level from 17 to 25 (you can select less than 17 and no more than your caster level)
So RAW a Wizard 15 with items/feats that give him +2 to his caster level, would be able to cast a 9th level spell.
That would mean as long as he doesnt have this items or spell specialisation for one specific spell you cant to much more with this abiliy even if you read it stricly RAW.
So RAI it clearly has the restrictions of a normal arcane bond.
Only RAW yes he can cast higher spells IF (and thats a big IF) his caster level is high enough for the spell he wants to cast.
This is the argument I started with against this player. I think it's the most solid argument for the RAW here.
Yeah, purely RAW thats all you can get.
There could be an erreta or an FAQ, but its a very late release (2018), so I doubt there is much.
As long as there are no items that buff the CL, it works like a normal arcane bond.
But we all know RAI it works like a normal arcane bond even with a higher CL and you shouldnt have to discuss something so obivous for more than 2 minutes with a player.
I use the PFS rules in general so that archetype is out of scope.
Yeah, that's because this is one of the most poorly-designed archetypes in all of Pathfinder and a prime example of the poor editorial oversight of the Player Companion product line. It should have never been published in this state. There are so many problems with this archetype:
1. There was already a published archetype called the Pact Wizard.
2. It is unclear at which level the metamagic cost reduction is obtained, as both 10th and 15th level are mentioned in the same paragraph with respect to other abilities, but this one is not explicitly addressed as to what level it is obtained.
3. The archetype just doesn't trade away enough class features relative to what it's gaining. You're only losing 5 bonus feats, which isn't nearly enough when you're getting extremely powerful abilities in exchange. This also means it has too much compatibility with other archetypes (like Exploiter)
4. The 10th level ability is usable way too many times per day given how strong it is, and it becomes so powerful at 15th level that it really shouldn't be usable more than 1/day.
5. The 20th level ability allows for degeneracy, like retrying a perception check until you successfully overhear a whispered conversation happening a mile away in a secret fortress 60 feet underground. It's not "impossible" per say, it just that the DC in the 1000's. Skill checks don't auto-succeed on a natural 20 for a good reason.
Overall, this is a poorly written and blatantly broken archetype, and it's no surprise it was summarily banned in PFS. People can do what they want in their home games, of course, but this is right up there with Leadership in terms of stuff that is going to be banned at a lot of tables. It's a shame because it is a very flavorful archetype, and if the author had just toned things back a little this could very well be a great option. But as it stands it's just not going to be allowed at many tables.
The description of the bonded book does not specify that it allows you to bypass any casting restriction except the requirement to prepare the spell. That means RAW all other requirement to cast the spell including minimum caster level and components must still be fulfilled. If a first level wizard can use a bonded book to ignore the required caster level, they should also be able to ignore the material component requirement. That would mean that once per day the 1st level caster could cast a Wish from the book without having to have a diamond worth 25,000 gold.
Since the archetype replaces arcane school with great Odyssey, they do not have an opposition school.
A lot of pointed (and accurate) criticism of the HHH Pact Wizard
I strongly suspect that the text was submitted by a freelancer and ruthlessly cut by Paizo staff in order to fit everything in the book. That's a problem with a fair number of the softcovers.
Spoiler:
It's a nitpick, but the thing that always jumps out to me and screams "this archetype really, really could have used another editing pass" is:
Quote:
If an oracle curse would add spells to the oracle’s list of spells known, the pact wizard instead add those spells to the wizard’s spell list as well as to his spellbook.
Subject-verb agreement isn't rocket science.
The intro to the archetype sounds like there's going to be some kind of cost associated with using the abilities. But it's just "you have an oracle curse." I wonder if the original text used some kind of influence mechanism like the medium's spirit.
I strongly suspect that the text was submitted by a freelancer and ruthlessly cut by Paizo staff in order to fit everything in the book. That's a problem with a fair number of the softcovers.
I'm definitely not blaming any individuals here. There were clear problems of quality control with the Player Companion product pipeline that go beyond any one person and were more structural as to how the product was produced. The Player Companion line produced some of the best content in Pathfinder, but also some of the worst, and I think the way it was produced contributed to both the good and the bad.
I don't think the HHH Pact Wizard is even that hard to fix. Make it give up the Arcane School class feature, remove a couple of the more excessive abilities (it doesn't need a free Fast Study at 1st level, and the 20th level ability is dysfunctional as already mentioned), and reduce the uses per day of its 10th level ability. That would almost certainly bring it into balance. It'd still be a great archetype, but no longer a free buffet of class features with no opportunity cost.
...There were clear problems of quality control with the Player Companion product pipeline that go beyond any one person and were more structural as to how the product was produced. The Player Companion line produced some of the best content in Pathfinder, but also some of the worst, and I think the way it was produced contributed to both the good and the bad. ...
no, the PPC line met its business and creative goals, along with being a source of new ideas into the Core RPG line (intentional rather than systemic problem). I don't think internally it was ever considered to have the authority of the Core product line and that was never effectively communicated to the buying public as it would negatively impact sales. I know I was irritated/frustrated by the monolithic authority & assumed competence of RAW. It is why I think the PFS rules & Campaign Clarifications are valuable as it was a second look and correction for Org Play approved by Paizo.
Specialized Wizard classes have the most impact in the Game. It is technically difficult to balance that in an archetype. Wizard class could have had a smoother power curve but OGL rewrite ya know.
• Pact(HHH) archetype goes crazy even IF you introduced a balance or two, so it needs a rewrite as a tutelary wizard (dumping "Pact").
• Poleiheira archetype is salvageable with some simple obvious clarifications.
And here I was thinking the Exploiter was the real issue with the Exploiter Pact Wizard not the Pact Wizard. Could have sworn an exploiter with Potent Magic, Quick Study, Dimension Slide, Fiendish Proboscis, and Counterspell would be the real issue in the build. But I suppose a built in way to bypass SR and pass those dispel checks so you don't need feats to do it is kinda the cherry on top so to speak.
