Ok I thought i was good on the Calm spell but I got a different take than I was going with in the advice section so I thought I would put this here.
CALM [two-actions] SPELL 2
CONCENTRATE EMOTION INCAPACITATION MANIPULATE MENTAL
Traditions divine, occult
Range 120 feet; Area 10-foot burst
Defense Will; Duration sustained up to 1 minute
You forcibly calm creatures in the area, soothing them into a
nonviolent state; each creature must attempt a Will save.
Critical Success The creature is unaffected.
Success Calming urges impose a –1 status penalty to the
creature’s attack rolls.
Failure Any emotion effects that would affect the creature
are suppressed and the creature can’t use hostile actions. If
the target is subject to hostility from any other creature, it
ceases to be affected by calm.
Critical Failure As failure, but hostility doesn’t end the effect
If the target is subject to hostility from any other creature.
This seemed on its face to say a hostile action against the calm creature ends the affect of a failed save. That would mean that hostile actions against its allies doesn't break the effect but a slap from an ally would break it.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That would mean that hostile actions against its allies doesn't break the effect but a slap from an ally would break it.
I wouldn't allow any action from an ally to end the effect by default. The same way Battle Medicine is not a hostile action even if you crit fail it, actions from your allies are not hostile even if they deal damage.
Intent is important in the definition of Hostile. If the intent is not hostile then it's not Hostile to me.
I wasnt sure i would have a rules question on this because it used the term hostility and not hostile action so some might say its not reference a defined rule and some might argue its common language and it does.
Ive read arguing back and forth on the forums on hostile actions in other contexts as well.
I agree with your battle medicine example. That wouldn't show hostility by any meaning of the word or be considered a hostile action by the games definition. You didnt think you would harm them when went to do it.
i am not as certain the reasoning there applies to other acts that a pc can do.
Doesnt the hostile rule also say that the expected effect and the intent need to be considered to determine if an act is hostile?
So i guess if you go for a slap you know wont cause harm then it doesn't work, but if you go for one that you know will cause harm then you've committed a hostile act. there doesn't seem to be any distinction between allies or enemies in the rules.
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I'm the opposite of Super Bidi. If the allies spend actions doing damage, the action is hostile as intent is not what matters for hostile but harm.
Otherwise calm you could argue something ridiculous like PCs thinking hostile thoughts of the enemies or even the use of calm itself is a hostile action because the PC casting it intends hostile intent towards the targets.
I may not allow something like slapping the targets out of calm if no damage is done, but if someone wants to hit their ally with a sword and do damage, they will break the calm.
But at the same time, calm doesn't prevent actions so healing your allies is fine or talking or moving away from the fight or casting wall of force or spells to prevent harm to your allies or everyone else.
This is going to be a very GM dependent spell as there is no consensus on hostile action. Just a GM adjudicated idea of it. Someone like Super Bidi his interpretation, I have mine, and I'm sure you'll hear more in this thread.
But there is no consensus and no absolute definition.
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This thread title feels like both a personal attack and good personal advice.
This thread title feels like both a personal attack and good personal advice.
LOL oh, your right.
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This seemed on its face to say a hostile action against the calm creature ends the affect of a failed save. That would mean that hostile actions against its allies doesn't break the effect but a slap from an ally would break it.
That is how our usual PFS GM played it once for enemies, including the slap "What are you doing ? Get back to your senses !" part.
Now, I was pretty frustrated by this but I mostly argued the slapping ally should have wasted at least an action on Perception (Sense Motive) or RK to realize something was wrong with his buddy.
I had zero problem with the ally's slap being a hostile action.
That is how our usual PFS GM played it once for enemies, including the slap "What are you doing ? Get back to your senses !" part.
Now, I was pretty frustrated by this
I can understand your frustration. I'd not allow an ally to know what to do without an RK check first.
And I could agree on a martial first attack or including your ally in your Fireball as hostile actions, but definitely not a "non-hostile" hostile action like a slap, an insult, a 1d4 damage unarmed attack, a Bon Mot, a third attack or a Demoralize. Any action specifically chosen to not really harm the ally, the same way Battle Medicine can harm but is not a hostile action because of that.
We've had this conversation before regarding fascinate and slapping people out of that. I felt those older threads were generally more OK with slapping people out of fascinate, then they are for slapping out of calm. Is there a difference beyond it seeming like fascinate is more often inflicted on PCs, while calm is more often used by PCs against the enemy?
I'd say the difference is that Fascinated is a general condition, and Calm is a specific spell. Everyone in universe generally understanding how conditions work (obviously with the same sort of metagame-to-narrative filtering that any character's in-universe understanding of anything mechanical goes through) is A LOT more reasonable than them knowing how a spell works without Identifying that Spell.
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That is how our usual PFS GM played it once for enemies, including the slap "What are you doing ? Get back to your senses !" part.
Now, I was pretty frustrated by this
I can understand your frustration. I'd not allow an ally to know what to do without an RK check first.
And I could agree on a martial first attack or including your ally in your Fireball as hostile actions, but definitely not a "non-hostile" hostile action like a slap, an insult, a 1d4 damage unarmed attack, a Bon Mot, a third attack or a Demoralize. Any action specifically chosen to not really harm the ally, the same way Battle Medicine can harm but is not a hostile action because of that.
My rule of thumb would be whether the calmed creature felt their ally's action was hostile.
Trying to heal me does not feel hostile. Slapping me does.
Now, if the ally healing me actually hurts me, I would feel it's somewhat hostile (because I do not like being hurt).
And that last bit makes me wonder now if there is any action a Kuthist would consider hostile.