| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It is kind of a moot point to talk about making major changes to the wizard chassis, because they aren’t going to remaster the remastered classes.
Giving up focus spells in class would be about exactly as much of a power shift as just requiring class feats to pick them up. Any class that has no focus spells can start picking them up as early as second level so the difference between none and “none I like” is very minimal.
You really can’t have a class that doesn’t get class feats at every even level in PF2. It would make the class impossible to archetype into or out of. You could have feats for picking up additional spells from spell slots…which the game already has covered, both in class for wizards, and via archetype.
Maybe, maybe you could sneak into an errata removing the automatic focus spell from your school choice, give the wizard a 1st level class feat, and then give the focus spell back as a level 1 class feat, but have a new class feat that would let you pick up the spell book of a second school, learn 2 of that school’s 1st rank school spells, and then treat all of that school’s school spells as your school spells when assigning daily slots.
I think you are right in that the remastered wizard chassis is unlikely to change and the easiest areas to add to the wizard will be new schools and feats.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It is kind of a moot point to talk about making major changes to the wizard chassis, because they aren’t going to remaster the remastered classes.
Giving up focus spells in class would be about exactly as much of a power shift as just requiring class feats to pick them up. Any class that has no focus spells can start picking them up as early as second level so the difference between none and “none I like” is very minimal.
You really can’t have a class that doesn’t get class feats at every even level in PF2. It would make the class impossible to archetype into or out of. You could have feats for picking up additional spells from spell slots…which the game already has covered, both in class for wizards, and via archetype.
Maybe, maybe you could sneak into an errata removing the automatic focus spell from your school choice, give the wizard a 1st level class feat, and then give the focus spell back as a level 1 class feat, but have a new class feat that would let you pick up the spell book of a second school, learn 2 of that school’s 1st rank school spells, and then treat all of that school’s school spells as your school spells when assigning daily slots.
I know it doesn't work this way, and that this class would never exist in the game. It's not a design suggestion. This is a hypothetical designed for me to understand /you/ better, and what /you/ value.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Unless I am trying to formally homebrew, I don’t really know how to evaluate ideas that wouldn’t really work within the system without sinking way to much time into a thought exercise.
If suddenly wizards had a full 4th slot plus a school slot, I would still choose to play a wizard, but it would be called out, rightly as pretty heavy power creep. Even if you flatly took away focus spells, they are too easy to buy back into to really be a loss and psychic archetype would be even more frequent of a level 2 feat than it already is.
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
For the life of me, I don't understand why there isn't a 1-Focus Ability that enables a Wizard with their Spellbook in hand to Cast a Spell from the book without expending a Slot. Put a limiter on it that you can't do this for a Spell you've already Prepared for the day and that you can only do this for any given Spell once per day as the "magic in the page fades temporarily" until the next daily prep.
There is a TON of fantasy out there which as Wizards straight-up casting their spells directly from their books full time and this would negate a TON of the prep headache as well as decision weighing that Wiz has to do when going to add free spells on the prospect of if something is TOO niche etc.
Yeah, it would be a few extra spells every day but if you limit to not be usable for spamming spells you already have set for the day or to reuse it endlessly it solves the "unlimited fireball" issue.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For the life of me, I don't understand why there isn't a 1-Focus Ability that enables a Wizard with their Spellbook in hand to Cast a Spell from the book without expending a Slot. Put a limiter on it that you can't do this for a Spell you've already Prepared for the day and that you can only do this for any given Spell once per day as the "magic in the page fades temporarily" until the next daily prep.
There is a TON of fantasy out there which as Wizards straight-up casting their spells directly from their books full time and this would negate a TON of the prep headache as well as decision weighing that Wiz has to do when going to add free spells on the prospect of if something is TOO niche etc.
Yeah, it would be a few extra spells every day but if you limit to not be usable for spamming spells you already have set for the day or to reuse it endlessly it solves the "unlimited fireball" issue.
An ability like that to make sense thematically and probably to balance it would need to be very limited and the action requirements might be horrific.
It might be something like 6 actions over 2 turns to cast a spell that way as the wizard needs time to pull out the spell book, search their spell book for the spell, and perform the extra magical effort needed to do in 12 seconds what they normally do with a full morning preparation + nearly 6 seconds of normal casting.In a way it would be kind of cool as it invokes the times when a wizard had to be protected cause magic took time to cast.
For the life of me, I don't understand why there isn't a 1-Focus Ability that enables a Wizard with their Spellbook in hand to Cast a Spell from the book without expending a Slot. Put a limiter on it that you can't do this for a Spell you've already Prepared for the day and that you can only do this for any given Spell once per day as the "magic in the page fades temporarily" until the next daily prep.
There is a TON of fantasy out there which as Wizards straight-up casting their spells directly from their books full time and this would negate a TON of the prep headache as well as decision weighing that Wiz has to do when going to add free spells on the prospect of if something is TOO niche etc.
Yeah, it would be a few extra spells every day but if you limit to not be usable for spamming spells you already have set for the day or to reuse it endlessly it solves the "unlimited fireball" issue.
My homebrew ATM is toying with a few things not unlike this. Mainly focus spells that instead of being spells in the traditional sense do something like this where to enhances the wizard kit of focusing on slotted spells more than anyone else. I will say this specific implementation is maybe a little too good, but for the spell substitution thesis a focus spell that lets you swap a spell as a free action for a focus point is one such idea I am toying with
It would need only limit spell rank for a focus spell like that, like start with only cantrips and go up as the the wizard level up, maybe let only curriculum spells to be used for that,
My solution however, is usually just unlimit the 4th slot, and make that the wizard can just expend any prepared slot to cast a spell of their curriculum. Universalist just have 3, but the arcane bond just let it cast any spell in their spellbook (still can use one arcane bond of each spell rank).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Question.
The problem people have with the 4th slot being curriculum based.
Is this an issue that has come up in playing the class for you or is it the idea of it that keeps you from wanting to play the class?
This distinction is big.
If you are playing a wizard you will likely pick a school with spells you mostly want and I dont think in practice the issue will be as big a deal as its being made out to be here.
As more schools options are made more choices of lists will be available and this problem of I dont like what i have to slot in the 4th slot will be kind of moot.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Question.
The problem people have with the 4th slot being curriculum based.Is this an issue that has come up in playing the class for you or is it the idea of it that keeps you from wanting to play the class?
This distinction is big.
If you are playing a wizard you will likely pick a school with spells you mostly want and I dont think in practice the issue will be as big a deal as its being made out to be here.As more schools options are made more choices of lists will be available and this problem of I dont like what i have to slot in the 4th slot will be kind of moot.
This reminds me of Backgrounds, where we sift through new ones till we get the right combo of feat and boosts.
Which made me realize what I feel is a major difference for the Wizard between PF1 and PF2.
Whereas the schools were a major factor in how you built and played your PF1 Wizard, they do not play such a fundamental role for the PF2 Wizard. It is the thesis that will drive how you build and play your PF2 Wizard.
The schools are just there for flavor.
Which explains why people who expect much from them will be disappointed.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For the life of me, I don't understand why there isn't a 1-Focus Ability that enables a Wizard with their Spellbook in hand to Cast a Spell from the book without expending a Slot. Put a limiter on it that you can't do this for a Spell you've already Prepared for the day and that you can only do this for any given Spell once per day as the "magic in the page fades temporarily" until the next daily prep.
Casting a slot spell as a focus spell I think goes far above and beyond what ought to be allowed for a regular caster, particularly one with so many spell slots. The Wizard has weak focus spells specifically because they have so many slots to play with, and the Kineticist, a class who can "cast" powerful magical effects with next to no daily constraints, generally has their stuff limited to the equivalent of one or two ranks below a top-rank slot spell. It also means that with three Focus Points, you could cast three 10th-rank spells back-to-back in the same encounter without even touching your slots. I do think the idea of casting a spell directly from your spellbook is brilliant -- that's what Arcane Bond did for the 1e Wizard -- but I think it still ought to be restricted to per-day uses if it's playing with spell slots. As a single-use effect, it could very well work as an upgrade to Arcane Bond, and if it's meant to be used multiple times, that's when I think it starts to compete with that fourth slot per rank.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Question.
The problem people have with the 4th slot being curriculum based.Is this an issue that has come up in playing the class for you or is it the idea of it that keeps you from wanting to play the class?
This distinction is big.
If you are playing a wizard you will likely pick a school with spells you mostly want and I dont think in practice the issue will be as big a deal as its being made out to be here.As more schools options are made more choices of lists will be available and this problem of I dont like what i have to slot in the 4th slot will be kind of moot.
The only problem encountered during play with the 4th slot being limited is that sometimes what you can put into a particular slot isn't actually all that useful to actually cast.
But even then, it tends to be a problem that is mostly in the realm of perception because the thing causing the spell you can prepare to not seem useful is that it is lower rank and dependent upon heightening to stay relevant, and that is a thing that would apply to most spells. It just feels different to definitely not be able to stick one of the few "evergreen" spells into that slot even if you do happen to have it in your book.
Even provided you can't find an evergreen spell to sub in that your GM see's as on-brand (which is already presuming a hostile GM), you can also just dump it into a staff with an evergreen spell on it, effectively laundering the slot, the system provides plenty of outs.
Question.
The problem people have with the 4th slot being curriculum based.Is this an issue that has come up in playing the class for you or is it the idea of it that keeps you from wanting to play the class?
This distinction is big.
If you are playing a wizard you will likely pick a school with spells you mostly want and I dont think in practice the issue will be as big a deal as its being made out to be here.As more schools options are made more choices of lists will be available and this problem of I dont like what i have to slot in the 4th slot will be kind of moot.
The only problem encountered during play with the 4th slot being limited is that sometimes what you can put into a particular slot isn't actually all that useful to actually cast.
But even then, it tends to be a problem that is mostly in the realm of perception because the thing causing the spell you can prepare to not seem useful is that it is lower rank and dependent upon heightening to stay relevant, and that is a thing that would apply to most spells. It just feels different to definitely not be able to stick one of the few "evergreen" spells into that slot even if you do happen to have it in your book.
Ok i see what you mean. I think there are ways to alleviate it too for a wizard. At least to a hopefully acceptable degree.
Generally these schools have several options for rank 1 and it actually behooves a wizard to eventually learn all of the lower rank spells in their curriculum. That gives more options at every rank and above to prepare in school slots.Once your using staves if there is still a slot you cant find use for throw it in the staff for the day. Thats for any wizard but if spell nexus or spell blending more slots can be recycled. Lol oh or as The-Magic-Sword put it laundered.
It's not a huge problem because like all the 3 slot casters the wizard can just ring the go home bell but the thing is that it means the remaster wizard is a 3.5 slot caster compared to the 4 slot premaster wizard. The new schools tend to pull in 3 or more directions so even if you take a school thats mostly stuff you want theres a good chance any given rank doesn't and so you're now stuck unsatisfactorily upcasting (not going to touch on uncommon spells but that makes the situation worse). It's perfectly survivable but if you're frequently not using your school slot why are you playing a wizard instead of a 3 slot with other class features?Question.
The problem people have with the 4th slot being curriculum based.Is this an issue that has come up in playing the class for you or is it the idea of it that keeps you from wanting to play the class?
This distinction is big.
If you are playing a wizard you will likely pick a school with spells you mostly want and I dont think in practice the issue will be as big a deal as its being made out to be here.As more schools options are made more choices of lists will be available and this problem of I dont like what i have to slot in the 4th slot will be kind of moot.
I agree with that last point. And it got me thinking just now of something interesting about that limitation.
One thing the curriculum enforce on any wizard is a particular spell identity. While prepared casting and learning many spells allows a wizard to remake themselves daily into any kind of caster theyve cared to learn spells for, they are always tied to their school theme by that 4rth slot. I think its actually a a win for themeing of the wizard that place a lot of their identity in spells. Without it wizards have no theme at all and are all pretty much the same any day they choose to be as any other wizard.Thing is until a school is made that you personally find ticks all the boxes you would want in curriculum you would be left to swap or homebrew to get there or as close to there as you find acceptable.
|
|
Would porting arcanist casting from PF1 for wizards break the game?
Sadly, the Arcanist is already in PF2 as a nickname for the Flexible Spellcasting Wizard. That's it, no port needed... Well, cept that we don't have the Arcanist pool, or unique stunts from that pool.
There is also other nicknames in play for the other casters that can take the Archtype that used to be a full class in PF1
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
For the life of me, I don't understand why there isn't a 1-Focus Ability that enables a Wizard with their Spellbook in hand to Cast a Spell from the book without expending a Slot. Put a limiter on it that you can't do this for a Spell you've already Prepared for the day and that you can only do this for any given Spell once per day as the "magic in the page fades temporarily" until the next daily prep.Casting a slot spell as a focus spell I think goes far above and beyond what ought to be allowed for a regular caster, particularly one with so many spell slots. The Wizard has weak focus spells specifically because they have so many slots to play with, and the Kineticist, a class who can "cast" powerful magical effects with next to no daily constraints, generally has their stuff limited to the equivalent of one or two ranks below a top-rank slot spell. It also means that with three Focus Points, you could cast three 10th-rank spells back-to-back in the same encounter without even touching your slots. I do think the idea of casting a spell directly from your spellbook is brilliant -- that's what Arcane Bond did for the 1e Wizard -- but I think it still ought to be restricted to per-day uses if it's playing with spell slots. As a single-use effect, it could very well work as an upgrade to Arcane Bond, and if it's meant to be used multiple times, that's when I think it starts to compete with that fourth slot per rank.
Let me do the math to determine how powerful casting a slotted spell as a focus spell would be.
Themetricsystem is not proposing refilling an empty spell slot like Drain Magic Item does. Refilling spell slots would let the wizard refill one spell slot, Refocus, refill a second spell slot, Refocus, refill a third spell slot, Refocus, and refill a fourth spell slot. That would let the wizard rely on his top-rank spell slots every time he had a long break between encounters. This focus spell, which I will call Recall Spell, casts the spell instead.
Recall Spell Full Version Focus 1
Uncommon Concentrate Manipulate
Traditions arcane
Cast Varies
Requirements You are holding your spellbook.
Your mastery of spells lets focus to tap further into your arcane power. You Cast a Spell to cast a spell that you prepared during your daily preparation today and already expended. The casting time of Recall Spell equals the casting time of that spell.
Assuming that the party takes 10 minutes to Refocus and Treat Wounds between every encounter, that gives an extra top-rank spell every encounter.
Last year in [url="https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43vmk&page=3?Michael-Sayre-on-Casters-Balance-and-Wizards#114"]Michael Sayre on Casters, Balance and Wizards, from Twitter comment s#114[/url}, Michael Sayre said, "Generally that means that your party should be loaded with enough "ammunition" to successfully tackle 3 Moderate encounters. Low and Trivial encounters don't really require any resource expenditure."
Thus, a wizard with 3 three top-rank spells prepared would cast one per Moderate-Threat encounter. The rest of the wizard's spells cast during the encounter would have lower rank, probably one rank lower. With Spell Recall Full Version the wizard would use Spell Recall instead of casting one lower-rank spell.
As rough generalization, spells one rank lower are half as powerful. For a two-round combat, the wizard would cast a full-power spell and Recall a full-power spell instead of casting a full-power spell and casting a half power spell. 2/1.5 = 1.33. That is a 33% increase in power.
That is a big increase. Is the Remastered wizard so weak that it needs a 33% boost in power. Let me check the other spellcasting classes in Player Core 1, because I still don't own Player Core 2.
Bard gets 3 spells per rank. It also gets light armor, martial weapon proficiency, 8+CON hit points per level, and Courageous Anthem. A bard could expend two top-rank spells in the first Moderate-Threat encounter, one top-rank spell in the second Moderate-Threat encounter, and then in later encounters make do with singing Courageous Anthem, drawing their rapier, and making Strikes. They cannot sustain two top-rank spells per Moderate-Threat encounter, but they don't fail badly if they burn out their spells early.
Cleric gets 3 spells per rank and a divine font that permits 4 top-rank Harm or Heal spells per day. Thus, the cleric could cast one top-rank spell from their spell slots and one top-rank Harm or Heal from their font in three Moderate-Threat encounters. In addition, they are trained in their deity's favored weapon and gain 8+CON hit points per level.
Druid gets 3 spells per rank. It also gets light and medium armor and 8+CON hit points per level. The druid cannot sustain two top-rank spells per Moderate-Threat encounter. Unlike the bard their only alternatives to spellcasting are the abilities granted by their Druid Order (which are arguably stronger than the wizard's abilities from Arcane School and Arcane Thesis, but let's not have that argument here).
Witch gets 3 spells per rank. The class is much like a wizard with no armor, simple weapons, and only 6+CON hit points per level, but it gains an above-average familiar and has hex cantrips in addition to its focus spells. The witch cannot sustain two top-rank spells per Moderate-Threat encounter. Unlike the bard their only alternatives to spellcasting are the abilities granted by their Patron.
The cleric seems to match the spellcasting power of a wizard with Recall Spell Full Version, but the other classes appear weaker. Recall Spell Full Version is too strong.
An obvious way to weaken Recall Spell to to forbid the recasting of the top-rank spells.
Recall Spell Lower Version Focus 2
Uncommon Concentrate Manipulate
Traditions arcane
Cast Varies
Requirements You are holding your spellbook.
Your mastery of spells lets focus to tap further into your arcane power. You Cast a Spell to cast a spell that you prepared during your daily preparation today and already expended, but the spell must have a lower rank than the highest rank you can cast. The casting time of Recall Spell equals the casting time of that spell.
In this case, the wizard during a Moderate-Threat encounter could cast a top-rank spell from their spell slots and then follow up with 2nd-from-top rank spells either from spell slots or from Recall Spell Lower Version. This would not make the wizard too powerful. But it is much less fun than the full version.
Thus, let's spice it by switching Recall Spell from a focus spell to a font spell. The wizard would lose their 4th slot for preparing curriculum spells. Instead, they gain a curriculum font, which I will call Spellbook Reference.
Spellbook Reference
Through your intense study of your arcane school's curriculum, you have the school's spells ready at hand. You gain 4 additional spell slots each day at your highest rank of wizard spell slots. You can prepare each of those spell slots later during the day than your daily reparations via a single Interact action with your spellbook. You can prepare only the curriculum spells from your arcane school in those spell slots.
The strength of Spellbook Reference is close to the strength of a cleric's Divine Font. The limited spell list is like the cleric's divine font being limited to Harm or Heal. Spellbook Reference does not depend on having time to Refocus. It would keep the wizard's curriculum spells active every day, but be more flexible than a 4th spell slot per rank that must be prepared at the beginning of the day.
And it has the thematic imagery of the wizard consulting their spellbook for the right spell.
You know this kind of ability of reaching into the spellbook and casting any spell from it is like a GM fudging a creatures spells known on the fly to kill the party. You wouldnt want a GM using it on you and no players should be doing it either.
For the life of me, I don't understand why there isn't a 1-Focus Ability that enables a Wizard with their Spellbook in hand to Cast a Spell from the book without expending a Slot. Put a limiter on it that you can't do this for a Spell you've already Prepared for the day and that you can only do this for any given Spell once per day as the "magic in the page fades temporarily" until the next daily prep.Casting a slot spell as a focus spell I think goes far above and beyond what ought to be allowed for a regular caster, particularly one with so many spell slots. The Wizard has weak focus spells specifically because they have so many slots to play with, and the Kineticist, a class who can "cast" powerful magical effects with next to no daily constraints, generally has their stuff limited to the equivalent of one or two ranks below a top-rank slot spell. It also means that with three Focus Points, you could cast three 10th-rank spells back-to-back in the same encounter without even touching your slots. I do think the idea of casting a spell directly from your spellbook is brilliant -- that's what Arcane Bond did for the 1e Wizard -- but I think it still ought to be restricted to per-day uses if it's playing with spell slots. As a single-use effect, it could very well work as an upgrade to Arcane Bond, and if it's meant to be used multiple times, that's when I think it starts to compete with that fourth slot per rank.Let me do the math to determine how powerful casting a slotted spell as a focus spell would be.
Themetricsystem is not proposing refilling an empty spell slot like Drain Magic Item does. Refilling spell slots would let the wizard refill one spell slot, Refocus, refill a second spell slot, Refocus, refill a third spell slot, Refocus, and refill a fourth spell slot. That would let the wizard rely on his top-rank spell slots every time he had a long break between encounters. This focus spell, which I will call Recall Spell, casts the...
There is an important difference here. The cleric only has heal in those font slots. Reaching into a wizards spell book unleashes the exact spell needed without preparation. Its not equivalent. it would be as broken almost no matter the limits placed on it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you were going to do some casting focus spells, you might as well make Drain Bonded Item a focus spell, then use it once every 10 minutes.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You know this kind of ability of reaching into the spellbook and casting any spell from it is like a GM fudging a creatures spells known on the fly to kill the party. You wouldnt want a GM using it on you and no players should be doing it either.
Had lots of fun when the BBEG escaped and got a whole day to prepare different spells against the players.
Had lots of fun when the BBEG escaped and got a whole day to prepare different spells against the players.You know this kind of ability of reaching into the spellbook and casting any spell from it is like a GM fudging a creatures spells known on the fly to kill the party. You wouldnt want a GM using it on you and no players should be doing it either.
Dr Doom status.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thus, a wizard with 3 three top-rank spells prepared would cast one per Moderate-Threat encounter.
I think this overlooks the way focus spells can be cast repeatedly by having more Focus Points in your pool. Having a pool of 3 Focus Points means you could cast 3 top-rank spells in an encounter without eating into your spell slots at all. When I set out to homebrew a class that casts slot spells as focus spells, I made sure a) that's all they do, b) their spell repertoire is tiny, and c) they can only draw from a tiny spell list, and even then I still gave them one 10th-rank slot as their only means of casting 10th-rank spells. I really don't think the ability to cast slot spells as focus spells is power that ought to be given to a 3-slot caster, let alone a 4-slot caster, without some heavy restrictions, i.e. only being able to do it with a single spell by default.
Spellbook Reference
Through your intense study of your arcane school's curriculum, you have the school's spells ready at hand. You gain 4 additional spell slots each day at your highest rank of wizard spell slots. You can prepare each of those spell slots later during the day than your daily reparations via a single Interact action with your spellbook. You can prepare only the curriculum spells from your arcane school in those spell slots.
This I could support much more, as it'd solve the problem of some curriculum slots getting wasted at low ranks, and the restrictive nature of curriculum lists would temper the versatility of preparing into these slots. My main concern is that this would risk eating the Cleric's lunch, given how font slots are a big part of the latter class's identity and power.
I think a focus spell that quite literally casts a spell from your repertoire is difficult because it just makes everything the rank it can cast and below obsolete. You don't need those slots pretty much ever again. The only way I can think of maybe making it work with some limiters is:
The spell must be -2, -3 or maybe even -4 your top rank. It must be a spell you haven't prepared today, and you can only cast any individual spell from your spellbook once with this focus spell on any given day. This also would have to be focus 4, not focus 1 and not focus 2
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The metric system's idea was pretty different than I see it being represented here. Their idea was that you can only cast a spell from your book that you haven't prepared for the day, and you can only do it one time per spell per day.
That would mean it would not be some infinitely spammable spell slot, but a "hey I have that spell in my book! now I can cast it."
It is an interesting idea, but I think it is a little excessively complicated to put into practice. A wizard might have 100+ spells in their spell book. Tracking "spells cast, but not from spell slots" would be another book keeping responsibility for a class that already has a lot of book keeping to do. Also, in practice, this is very close to the spell substitution thesis, only you spend the time after you cast the spell, and it only works one time per spell that you didn't already prepare or cast. I am guessing that it would also take some additional restrictions around spell blending or else there would be this weird incentive to not cast any spells from your spell slots, have only one spell memorized in each slot so you can spam through your spell book, then start changing out spells for spells you already cast through your focus spell.
Also the whole heightening the same spell to different ranks to be a new spell would add even more book keeping to the process.
I think the book keeping headache is probably the most convincing reason why "cast any spell you can cast from spell slots, but with focus points" is not something we have seen anywhere yet. The closest we have to this is going to be the animist, which will be a very interesting class to look at as a caster down the road as well.
Also, there already is a "reprepare slot" feat in the game for wizards as is, which is probably a pretty important thing to look at when thinking about what could possibly be added to the wizard class later. A lot of folks find that 18th level feat that grants a spell 5 ranks bellow your top slot, and can't have a duration, to be lacking. That is a fine personal perspective to have, but expecting something to similar to that to be added to the game, but massively more powerful is a pretty unreasonable expectation. Like maybe it is a little weak and something could improve it a little, but it is not going to be something like, "use a focus point to cast a spell 1 rank below your maximum."
Even if some focus spells are about as powerful as a top rank -1 spell slot, none of them are as flexible as "any spell you know cast at top rank -1." We all know that the developers do value flexibility in their power assessment. Heck, even the school of protean form's advanced focus spell (so rank 4) is essentially just offering a choice between 5 rank one focus spells.
I think a focus spell that quite literally casts a spell from your repertoire is difficult because it just makes everything the rank it can cast and below obsolete. You don't need those slots pretty much ever again. The only way I can think of maybe making it work with some limiters is:
The spell must be -2, -3 or maybe even -4 your top rank. It must be a spell you haven't prepared today, and you can only cast any individual spell from your spellbook once with this focus spell on any given day. This also would have to be focus 4, not focus 1 and not focus 2
I think that in itself is still quite risky given how it basically gives your caster access to tons of exploration spells on-tap. Because 10 minutes is fairly trivial during exploration, it means you can eventually cast knock on every lock, translocate to bypass most obstacles at a distance of 120 feet, sending to communicate all the information you need regardless of distance, and so on and so forth, to say nothing of buff spells that last more than 10 minutes and could be cast essentially for free. If casting spells with no resource constraints were a caster's whole thing, with appropriate reductions in versatility, then that could perhaps be okay, but on a regular slot-based caster I do still think it's a bit too strong, and still runs the risk of trivializing spell slots below a certain rank.
I also think that with regards to casting more spells, the Wizard kind of has that covered already without even considering their fourth slot: Arcane Bond exists as a means of casting extra spells, and could be expanded to do more of that just like with Unified Magical Theory, but also Spell Blending is the option for players who want to cast lots of high-rank spells, and could itself be built upon to do more of that. While the Wizard has the means to cast more spells, I don't feel that really ought to be their central identity, not when their flexibility and versatility tends to define them much more across game editions. That identity would probably be a bit easier to express in a more bespoke manner if the arcane spell list itself weren't so overloaded, but even now, I think there's lots of different ways of putting more emphasis on the Wizard having the perfect spell for the occasion, or being able to bend the rules of magic to their advantage.
The metric system's idea was pretty different than I see it being represented here. Their idea was that you can only cast a spell from your book that you haven't prepared for the day, and you can only do it one time per spell per day.
This is not the meaningful restriction you think it is. All this does is have the Wizard prepare niche spells in their slots, and reserve the rest for their focus spell, including the really powerful spells they're going to cast anyway. Besides the ultra-powerful options like cataclysm, there's tons of different spells that achieve similar effects and effectively allow you to apply the same broad effect as many times as you want, even as you cast each spell once per day.
You know this kind of ability of reaching into the spellbook and casting any spell from it is like a GM fudging a creatures spells known on the fly to kill the party. You wouldnt want a GM using it on you and no players should be doing it either.
There is an important difference here. The cleric only has heal in those font slots. Reaching into a wizards spell book unleashes the exact spell needed without preparation. Its not equivalent. it would be as broken almost no matter the limits placed on it.
That is why casting from the spellbook would need a restriction on which spells can be cast. Allowing any of the spells in the spellbook does amplify the result by casting the right spell at the right time all the time.
The three workable restrictions that I can see are (1) repeating spells you prepared that day, like Drain Bonded Item, (2) keep the rank below the top rank, or (3) curriculum spells only. Any other ideas?
Repeating prepared spells limits the variety of spells that the wizard will cast. However, it does serve the same purpose as Drain Bonded Item: it lets the wizard not worry about expending the only spell that deals with a specific problem. We could drop the Drain Bonded Item ability since Recall Spell would fill its niche.
Casting lower-rank spells would reduce the power of Recall Spell. But all the lower-rank spells in the wizard's spellbook is still a great variety of spells and would still lead to the right spell at the right time.
Curriculum spells are a fairly small list, though much bigger than the cleric's Harm only or Heal only. And it emphasizes the wizard's choice of arcane school. It serves the same purpose as the 4th curriculum-spell-only spell slot, so we could drop that 4th spell slot. I think that a focus spell or font spell to cast curriculum spells will be more thematic and less frustrating than the restricted 4th spell slot. A curriculum-only focus or font spell would usually be used for the top-rank curriculum spells but sometimes a lower-rank spell will be the right spell for the job.
A combination of restrictions is possible, but it would make the ability harder to understand.
The metric system's idea was pretty different than I see it being represented here. Their idea was that you can only cast a spell from your book that you haven't prepared for the day, and you can only do it one time per spell per day.
I immediately rejected that as a restriction because it leave way too many spells available. It would be an inconvenience rather than a restriction.
I think a focus spell that quite literally casts a spell from your repertoire is difficult because it just makes everything the rank it can cast and below obsolete. You don't need those slots pretty much ever again.
When I played prepared spellcasters, those lower-rank slots ended up as buff spells and utility spells, even without a Spell Recall.
The spell must be -2, -3 or maybe even -4 your top rank. It must be a spell you haven't prepared today, and you can only cast any individual spell from your spellbook once with this focus spell on any given day. This also would have to be focus 4, not focus 1 and not focus 2
The wizard could manage the same versatility with scrolls rather than a special ability. The cost of 1st-level scrolls is manageable at 7th level when the wizard can cast 4th-rank spells.
Thus, a wizard with 3 three top-rank spells prepared would cast one per Moderate-Threat encounter.I think this overlooks the way focus spells can be cast repeatedly by having more Focus Points in your pool. Having a pool of 3 Focus Points means you could cast 3 top-rank spells in an encounter without eating into your spell slots at all. ...
I forgot to mention that if the wizard gained a Spell Recall focus spell as a class feature, then access to their initial arcane school focus spell would be moved to a feat to keep them at 1 focus point at 1st level. Thus, to gain a full 3 focus points, the wizard would have to spend wizard class feats on the initial and advanced arcane school focus spells or on multiclassing to gain other focus spells. Those new focus spells would compete with Spell Recall for the focus points.
Extra power from investing feats is fine. And if combat lasts only 2 rounds--this is typical for my party and a 3rd round is often mopping up remnants of an enemy force--then the wizard would not cast 3 spells anyway.
On the other hand, a wizard insisting on repeatedly Refocusing in a dungeon after all the Treat Wounds is over would lead to party tension. That is one reason I favor a font-based recall rather than a focus spell recall.
My main concern is that this would risk eating the Cleric's lunch, given how font slots are a big part of the latter class's identity and power.
I had to check the idiom. Merriam-Webster says, "eat someone's or something's lunch: to outdo or defeat someone or something very badly." Well, the cleric's lunch is really divine spellcasting rather than the divine font.
But we could reduce Spellbook Reference to 3 additional spell slots rather than 4 so that the cleric can feel superior for having more font spell slots. The wizard would make up for a smaller font by having greater flexibility in spell choice.
I forgot to mention that if the wizard gained a Spell Recall focus spell as a class feature, then access to their initial arcane school focus spell would be moved to a feat to keep them at 1 focus point at 1st level. Thus, to gain a full 3 focus points, the wizard would have to spend wizard class feats on the initial and advanced arcane school focus spells or on multiclassing to gain other focus spells. Those new focus spells would compete with Spell Recall for the focus points.
Okay, so I pick a human, get Natural Ambition, and go for Psychic Dedication at 2nd level, getting me to 3 Focus Points. Gaining more FP in 2e is not very difficult to do.
Extra power from investing feats is fine. And if combat lasts only 2 rounds--this is typical for my party and a 3rd round is often mopping up remnants of an enemy force--then the wizard would not cast 3 spells anyway.
On the other hand, a wizard insisting on repeatedly Refocusing in a dungeon after all the Treat Wounds is over would lead to party tension. That is one reason I favor a font-based recall rather than a focus spell recall.
Extra power from feats is okay, disproportionately more power less so, and getting to cast an extra slot spell per encounter for every additional FP I think falls very much into that latter camp. Given how common it is for casters to have more than 1 FP, I don't think the Wizard would stand out for wanting to spend 20 or 30 minutes Refocusing.
I had to check the idiom. Merriam-Webster says, "eat someone's or something's lunch: to outdo or defeat someone or something very badly." Well, the cleric's lunch is really divine spellcasting rather than the divine font.
But we could reduce Spellbook Reference to 3 additional spell slots rather than 4 so that the cleric can feel superior for having more font spell slots. The wizard would make up for a smaller font by having greater flexibility in spell choice.
To be very clear, the problem does not begin when the Wizard completely trivializes the Cleric, the problem begins when the Wizard starts to do things that are very similar to one of the Cleric's defining class features. Even if you were to balance the feature to be weaker, that would still cause the Wizard's gameplay to overlap with the Cleric's in a manner that I don't think is necessary for the Wizard to shine, and that wouldn't benefit the Cleric either.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To be very clear, the problem does not begin when the Wizard completely trivializes the Cleric, the problem begins when the Wizard starts to do things that are very similar to one of the Cleric's defining class features. Even if you were to balance the feature to be weaker, that would still cause the Wizard's gameplay to overlap with the Cleric's in a manner that I don't think is necessary for the Wizard to shine, and that wouldn't benefit the Cleric either.I had to check the idiom. Merriam-Webster says, "eat someone's or something's lunch: to outdo or defeat someone or something very badly." Well, the cleric's lunch is really divine spellcasting rather than the divine font.
But we could reduce Spellbook Reference to 3 additional spell slots rather than 4 so that the cleric can feel superior for having more font spell slots. The wizard would make up for a smaller font by having greater flexibility in spell choice.
Part of the PF2 wizard's weakness is that the other spellcasting classes ate its lunch. Instead of the wizard having the biggest spell list with many of the best spells, the PF1 arcane and divine spell lists were divided into four equal parts: arcane, divine, occult, and primal. This was necessary for the tight math and so that classes like sorcerer, summoner, and witch which chose their tradition could stay balanced. The wizard was left as a class that depended solely on spellcasting but had no better spellcasting than the other primary spellcasters.
In contrast, the warpriest cleric carried on the semi-martial tradition of the PF1 clerics. They could hold the front line in their medium armor, armed with their diety's favored weapon, and sturdy with 8+CON hit points. That doctrine is quite distinct from the wizard.
Sadly, the cloistered cleric is made to be a dedicated spellcaster like the wizard, so they ended up very similar. They are both primary spellcasters who depend on their spells with few other options, and are both portrayed as prefering to stay indoors studying. The divine font is not enough to distinguish them.
Nevertheless, I will try to think of a third mechanic instead of focus spells and font spells for the Spellbook Reference. This is all just theorycrafting not yet a houserule, though the player of the wizard Idris in my campaign recently agreed to playtest Spellbook Reference.
I don't think the above is all that true: for sure, the arcane list got pared down with lots of bits going to the occult list, but even so, the pre-remaster Wizard was considered to be a capable class. Not the strongest caster, but a versatile and effective class nonetheless, thanks to the breadth of the arcane list and the versatility of their fourth slot. The Warpriest was already its own class in 1e that has nothing at all to do with the Wizard, and the Cleric in general distinguishes themselves through extra spell slots only insofar as those slots contribute extra raw damage or healing, the latter of which in particular is also something the Wizard doesn't touch at all. The Wizard's identity may not be particularly strong in 2e, but the Cleric's absolutely is, which is why Cloistered Clerics in particular go down very well with their players, including newcomers to the system.
If I were to make a recommendation for mechanics to try out, in addition to putting emphasis on the class's flexibility, I'd perhaps work to make the Wizard more accessible. One of the class's big issues right now, in my opinion, is that their power comes from stuff that only more experienced players will be able to fully appreciate and make use of. If the Wizard's power were easier to access or allowed for more error-correcting, that I suspect would already get more players on board with them.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's going to be easier and less controversial to add a not-wizard that performs whatever new idealized methods than to upend the wizard itself. Paizo may indeed take that up with PF3E, but there are additional risks and costs to doing so which I would not expect them to undergo.
The best likely scenario I see for a major revision is if they add either a new class or a major subclass variant in PF2E which becomes wildly popular (without power creep!) and the next go around they merge that into the wizard at its core in PF3E.
You know maybe thinking of what the goals of such a focus spell would be first can help identify what it actually should do to achieve that goal?
Is the goal to give the wizard more ranked spells per day? if not the focus spell should also use up the same rank spell slot.
Is the goal to allow the wizard unfettered access to their spell book every encounter? Up to 3 times per encounter? If not then meaningful restrictions need to be in place to give the choices intended.
Is the goal to allow a wizard to do in 6 seconds what normally takes time in the morning to prepare and action compress the casting of the spell in that same amount of time? Is the goal to allow any spell known to be deployed immediately in the same turn without it being prepared? If not then there needs to be time involved like a two round cast.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
A lot of these proposals don't do it for me, especially not without serious redesigns of the rest of the class. I think casting regular spells of your highest rank-2 as focus spells would be a great idea for a prepared arcane wavecaster, but I don't think it makes much sense on a normal prepared caster with a full slot loadout. (I think you could do spells of the maximum rank -1 if you made casting them cost two or three focus points instead of just one, as an addendum.)
Copying font and plopping school spells into it doesn't make much sense to me, either. The reason font is strong is that heal is the single most generically useful spell in the game, and it also has clear limits on how often it can be useful (because healing can only come after damage). A font of school spells could be anywhere from overpowered to useless depending on both the encounter and your school. Battle Magic would have an incredible font at all levels (that's how many casts of heightened magic missile a day?), but other schools have significantly worse floors for most of their life.
I think maybe the best ability you could give every wizard right now without breaking too much would just be something like a 1A spellsub once a day. It does much of what we're trying to accomplish (make the wizard's versatility easier to use), but with less pain and less reworking of other aspects.
A more interesting proposal that I'd like to investigate: on even levelups, giving wizard a free scroll of any common spell of the highest spell rank they can cast. (Might be worthwhile for arcane witch, as well.) The scroll would have caveats—only usable by the wizard, has no sale value, and so on—but could be used to learn the spell like usual. This would give wizard some bonus versatility, perhaps.
I also liked the idea of using spell trait combinations as schools that someone proposed earlier. But I feel it probably wouldn't work out in the end, as traits aren't really tuned for this purpose. However, there might be something in the vicinity. Maybe wizard (or another hypothetical class) could have a feat that went something like:
Choose one of the following traits. <insert list here>
Once per day, whenever you cast a spell with that trait, you may first use an action and expend a focus point. If you do, instead of casting the spell you prepared, you can cast another spell of the same rank or lower from your spellbook with the chosen trait.
It don't know if it's balanceable in the end, but it's interesting.
I think a focus spell that quite literally casts a spell from your repertoire is difficult because it just makes everything the rank it can cast and below obsolete. You don't need those slots pretty much ever again. The only way I can think of maybe making it work with some limiters is:
The spell must be -2, -3 or maybe even -4 your top rank. It must be a spell you haven't prepared today, and you can only cast any individual spell from your spellbook once with this focus spell on any given day. This also would have to be focus 4, not focus 1 and not focus 2
I think that in itself is still quite risky given how it basically gives your caster access to tons of exploration spells on-tap. Because 10 minutes is fairly trivial during exploration, it means you can eventually cast knock on every lock, translocate to bypass most obstacles at a distance of 120 feet, sending to communicate all the information you need regardless of distance, and so on and so forth, to say nothing of buff spells that last more than 10 minutes and could be cast essentially for free. If casting spells with no resource constraints were a caster's whole thing, with appropriate reductions in versatility, then that could perhaps be okay, but on a regular slot-based caster I do still think it's a bit too strong, and still runs the risk of trivializing spell slots below a certain rank.
I also think that with regards to casting more spells, the Wizard kind of has that covered already without even considering their fourth slot: Arcane Bond exists as a means of casting extra spells, and could be expanded to do more of that just like with Unified Magical Theory, but also Spell Blending is the option for players who want to cast lots of high-rank spells, and could itself be built upon to do more of that. While the Wizard has the means to cast more spells, I don't feel that really ought to be their central identity, not when their flexibility and versatility tends to define them much...
You can cast knock once a day for the cost of a focus point with what is suggested here. Which might be fine, but it takes some of the joy of prepared casting out of prepared casting. It makes having the answers too easy
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
The design philosophy of the wizard is to be the "master of spells"
I honestly don't feel this is Paizo's intention for the class. Or, rather, the veiw of "mastery" they are applying is one of a spreadsheet manager rather than in-game affectiveness.
Whereas we've seen the Sorcerer move into a space where it can infulence both its ability to land spells, and for the outcome of these spells to be enhanced, both of which above what is possible by other classes. This gives a mastery to them in a way which aligns to how most people would think of it. Your spells land more often, and are more impactful when they do.
The Wizard "mastery" aspect is based on playing around in limited ways with Spell Slots. This can be impactful with a good use of those spell slots, but you are generally on your own when it comes to actual effectiveness.
This is a form of technical mastery in the same way as someone who is a talented composer can come up with some really "interesting" music which is different from what others would compose. Whereas Sorcerers are out there being famous, making money and doing what most people understand as being musicians.
Empower Spell - 1 action - Spellshape
Increase the spell DC of the next spell you cast by +1 against a single target of the spell.Heightened (+2 at level 6)
This is the current version of "Knowledge is Power" in the game
This is my current redesign as a level 1 class ability:Knowledge is Power
Your academic knowledge about a creature allows you to subtly alter your magic to defeat them. When you succeed at a Recall Knowledge check about a creature, you can invoke your knowledge to make the creature take a –1 circumstance penalty to either AC and saves against the next attack you make against it, or the next spell you cast that it needs to defend against.
If you critically succeed you may share this information with your allies, if you do they gain the benefits as well. If not used, the bonuses end after 1 minute.
It might seem weaker than ancestral memories at first blush, but keep in mind that this inflicts a circumstance penalty, not a status penalty
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
My plan is to replace feats that give weaknesses or overcome resistances with ones that double up on advantages by targeting the lowest defense and hitting a weakness. For example one feat could say that if you deal fire damage to an enemy with a weakness to fire you increase that weakness by x amount. Or if you target the lowest save, or the save tied for lowest your DC increases by 1 or something to this effect. Double down on the wizard matching spells to situations and enemies, rather than what they have right now with forcible energy and overwhelming energy, which I feel fits the sorcerer more. I am *also* designing what is right now an arcane thesis, but might become a class archetype which has the place holder name "force master" and the mechanical design is to give "sorcerer-lite" to the wizard in the way imperial gives the sorcerer "wizard-lite". Basically it's a wizard that adds bonus damage to force spells, not unlike potent sorcerery, gets force bolt as a focus spell, gets to eventually give other spells the force trait and switch damage types to force, and also allows force damage to trigger enemy weaknesses. So say aforementioned enemy weak to fire would be treated like they got hit by a fire spell if you hit them with a force spell. Probably going to be a high level feat and mutually exclusive to the feat that increases enemy weaknesses. Their advanced school spell will also let them shape wall of force as if it were a wall of stone, and probably some other neat stuff. So anyone who really likes the play style forcible energy and overwhelming energy gave can get that back with this thesis/archetype
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The design philosophy of the wizard is to be the "master of spells"
I honestly don't feel this is Paizo's intention for the class. Or, rather, the veiw of "mastery" they are applying is one of a spreadsheet manager rather than in-game affectiveness.
Whereas we've seen the Sorcerer move into a space where it can infulence both its ability to land spells, and for the outcome of these spells to be enhanced, both of which above what is possible by other classes. This gives a mastery to them in a way which aligns to how most people would think of it. Your spells land more often, and are more impactful when they do.
The Wizard "mastery" aspect is based on playing around in limited ways with Spell Slots. This can be impactful with a good use of those spell slots, but you are generally on your own when it comes to actual effectiveness.
This is a form of technical mastery in the same way as someone who is a talented composer can come up with some really "interesting" music which is different from what others would compose. Whereas Sorcerers are out there being famous, making money and doing what most people understand as being musicians.
Mastery of spells when they cast them no better than anyone else and can use them less efficiently and with less on demand versatility than a sorcerer.
That would be a very, very forced defining trait of a wizard that I would definitely not agree with.
The only thing I view the wizard as given what they do is most versatile caster if you give them the information and time to prepare and the spells on the arcane list are good to solve the problem, but the value of that is entirely dependent on GM fiat as 95% of the time every single other casters spell loadout works equally well for winning the battle or solving the problem.
That is nowhere near what I refer to as a master.
A level 20 polymath bard who can use any spell on any list is more a master of spells than a wizard.
Don't understand me, I am not endorsing this concept. I am just saying that it is the only form of "spell mastery" a Wizard can claim to have.
I know. I was responding to your post as that is the first time I've heard the claim you quoted. It's pretty clear no one is the master of spells in PF2. I'm surprised the poster you quoted claimed that.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've already seen proven during play that having more high level spells at the cost of lower level spells that are still valuable is not great. There was this handful of people pushing this idea that only top level slots matter. At first I listened, then after playing numerous casters I found them to be wrong. I use a lot of lower level slots. Lower level slots are still useful across all levels because of how spell proficiency works. So the wizard paying lower level slots to load up on higher level spells isn't an advantage. It's just a waste of lower level slots.
What do they get for say doing a level 7 chain lightning versus a level 6? 1d12 damage? What did they give up? Two 3rds? Two slow spells, two hastes, two 6d6 fireballs for an extra 1d12 damage?
Spell Blending for more high level slots isn't much of a gain in PF2. The highest level slots are not clearly the most useful.
It gets even worse at higher level. Do you really want to blend away a 6th and a 3rd for a 9th when that 3rd is another slow or haste and that 6th is a mass slow or a chain lightning. Or blend away a 4th and a 5th for a 9th? A 4th is a greater invisibility or a 4th level restoration or a vision of death or a fly and a 5th is a 9d4+9 force barrage or a magic passage or a telepathic bond.
I don't see the value of obtaining more high level spells at the cost of still useful and potent lower level spells. Higher level slots are not always better than lower level spells.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So the wizard paying lower level slots to load up on higher level spells isn't an advantage. It's just a waste of lower level slots.You're kind of half right here. If you've got a good grasp of which spells are going to actually shine for you when you spend the actions to cast them, giving up 2 for 1 can end up being a bum deal.
What do they get for say doing a level 7 chain lightning versus a level 6? 1d12 damage? What did they give up? Two 3rds? Two slow spells, two hastes, two 6d6 fireballs for an extra 1d12 damage?Spell Blending for more high level slots isn't much of a gain in PF2. The highest level slots are not clearly the most useful.
This is where the wrong half comes in; if you up two 3rd rank spells to spell blend, you can get a 4th or 5th rank spell out of, not a 7th.
And the spell blending thesis is most potent when the spells you are preparing in those higher rank slots are actually native to that rank, not when heightening something since heightened spells are naturally not as potent.
So it's not a comparison of a 6th or 7th rank chain lightning, it's a comparison of whether the use of two howling blizzard spells (60 foot 10d6 cone with option for 500 foot range 30-foot burst for 3 actions) is better than the use of an eclipse burst spell (2-action 500 foot range 60 foot burst for 8d10 of the same sort of damage, plus 8d4 void, and some extra interactions with light and potential blindness).
And that's just comparing spells of similar use case. Things can be even more worth blending if the higher rank spell you would pick up as a result has a whole different use case that is more likely to come up that day.
...Do you really want to blend away a 6th and a 3rd for a 9th...And this bit makes it seem like you're not actually familiar with how the spell blending rules work because you explicitly cannot blend slots of differing ranks.
That's even worse than I thought. So two 3rd for a 5th. My goodness that is an awful trade. Two slows for one 5th level spell. Two 6ths for an 8th, horrible trade.
Thanks for pointing that out. That's even worse than I originally thought. I haven't played a wizard in a while. I've never chosen Spell Blending and no one else has either because it's easy to see it is a terrible thesis that gets worse as you level and those lower level slots hold even more valuable spells. Trading a couple of 1sts for a 3rd looks ok, trading a couple of 6ths for an 8th is almost never good.
Spell Combination at level 20 is amazing, Spell Blending is a trash thesis.