Hello, is it possible to use charming liar in a combat ?
Does the Lie action use a round action ?
the target's attitude toward you improves by one step.
Is it possible to Make a Request as to drink a potion ?
Thanks for your future answer.
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Hello, is it possible to use charming liar in a combat ?
Yes, the Lie is not an exploration activity and can potentially be used even during a combat encounter.
Does the Lie action use a round action ?
The Lie action has no fixed action/time cost associated with it. The 1 round is only the given minimum:
You try to fool someone with an untruth. Doing so takes at least 1 round, or longer if the lie is elaborate.
So it's up to your GM to decide how much time your Lie requires, and then the player has to decide whether that is a feasible investment in combat.
You must be lying to impart seemingly important information, inflate your status, or ingratiate yourself, which trivial or irrelevant lies can’t achieve.
... and although this is meant as a safeguard to prevent players from uttering obvious lies ("We have a beautiful green sky today!") hoping for a quick crit success, one could also interpret it as taking a little more time than a "trivial" lie.
Is it possible to Make a Request as to drink a potion ?
Sure, why don't you have a seat and give my latest cocktail a try?
But remember that you can only make a Request of someone friendly or helpful to you, hostile/unfriendly/indifferent NPCs can't be the target of a Request action.
A successful Charm spell, for example, can make someone friendly or helpful and then become a valid target for the Request action.
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As a GM, I would rule that using Charming Liar takes as long as using Diplomacy to Make an Impression (1 minute).
I would say it's as possible to use Charming Liar in combat as it is to use Diplomacy to make a regular Make an Impression check, bearing in mind it will take 1 minute (which is 10 rounds). It would be exceedingly unlikely, but I can imagine a situation where you are essentially trying to sit out combat and get the attention of 1 enemy (who happens to be in charge) who also doesn't immediately engage in fighting. I won't say this is likely, but not impossible. It's also worth noting that Charming Liar seems to only allow you to influence one individual, which would limit its usefulness.
Assuming you successfully make them friendly or helpful, you can probably then attempt to make a request, which follows normal diplomacy rules. Though if they were willing to fight you before, there's a strong chance you only made them indifferent at best (thus not a target for Request). I can again imagine a scenario where you have some mercenary who is indifferent to you who is made friendly that you then might make a request of.
Overall, while it's not forbidden to try to use, from a practical standpoint I don't think it's going to be useful.
See Emissary of Peace for a reference point for game balance and level of power. Charming Liar is a level 1 skill feat.
I'm not sure how big of a Lie you can tell in one round of combat. One round is the minimum time that Lie takes. But it would take all 3 of your actions doing some fast talking - for however many rounds the Lie takes to tell.
As for changing attitude, people you are in combat with are Hostile attitude. Even raising that by one step would only put them at Unfriendly. And I would likely put them back down to Hostile once you or an ally uses a hostile action against them or one of their allies.
I don't see any way of getting someone to Helpful or Friendly status while in combat with them. So Request wouldn't work. If for some reason you could get an enemy combatant to Friendly or Helpful, having them give you one of their potions while still in the middle of battle would be an unreasonable request.
I'm not sure how big of a Lie you can tell in one round of combat. One round is the minimum time that Lie takes. But it would take all 3 of your actions doing some fast talking - for however many rounds the Lie takes to tell.
That's note quite true. Talking itself is a free action. So you can use more than 3 actions to Lie.
As for changing attitude, people you are in combat with are Hostile attitude.
That's definitely not true. Just because you are fighting someone doesn't mean the other side is hostile. Hostile-Unfriendly-Indifferent-Friendly-Helpful is a scale for how people feel about you on a personal level. That big bear in the woods isn't hostile to you, but it fights when you are near its cubs. The mercenary company doesn't really care about you, but they were paid to fight you. I'd say for normal encounters, monsters & strangers, it's rather rare that the other side is hostile towards you as a person. Not everyone out there fights against you out of hatred.
And a good Lie ("We're the Knights of XYZ, reinforcements are nearby, you better surrender peacefully!") might just work to convince some people not to fight or drop their weapons.
Personally, I would rather make such attempts of Diplomacy & Deception dependent on the party's preparation & reputation, rather than using general statements of how long it takes or whether it's possible at all. If your party managed to gather information about the mercenary leader (e.g. "He's only doing this to earn enough money for the expensive medicine his wife needs."), and then prepares a believable Lie (e.g. "I'm friends with the Herbalist XYZ, who can concoct it cheaper."), who is to say that it takes a long time or would be difficult to do. Similarly spreading a false rumor the day before that "the Invincible Hulkarion is visting the town" and then Lieing at the beginning of the encounter that your party's Fighter is the famous Invincible Hulkarion, can bring someone to the negotiating table.
As for changing attitude, people you are in combat with are Hostile attitude.That's definitely not true. Just because you are fighting someone doesn't mean the other side is hostile.
If you are attacking them and they are running away, then I guess you could argue that they are not Hostile. Though they likely will become so rather quickly even if they continue running away instead of fighting back.
But if they are attacking you, then they definitely are Hostile - by definition.
A creature that is unfriendly to a character dislikes and distrusts that character. The unfriendly creature won't accept Requests from the character.
No mention of harm or attacks.
A creature hostile to a character actively seeks to harm that character. It doesn't necessarily attack, but it won't accept Requests from the character.
Something that is Hostile might not be attacking, but anything that is attacking is Hostile.
And yes, not everything that is Hostile is hostile because of hatred.
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And a good Lie ("We're the Knights of XYZ, reinforcements are nearby, you better surrender peacefully!") might just work to convince some people not to fight or drop their weapons.
Two thoughts.
One, this is something that would likely be done before combat starts rather than in the middle of throwing Strikes and spells at each other.
Two, that is pretty much the description of the Emissary of Peace feat that I linked to earlier. Which is a level 10 archetype skill feat. Not a level 1 general skill feat.
Yeah, if the OP wants to accomplish this kind of thing, the Emissary of Peace feat is a good place to start. Now, the OP might not want to be a part of that archetype, but if I were the GM I would likely come up with something similar that could be accessed by OP without needing the Knight Vigilant archetype. But that feat makes pretty clear the limitations of trying such a thing, and whether or not you use Deception or Diplomacy doesn't change that for me (Charming Liar pretty much just lets you Make an Impression using deception).
Emissary of Peace specifically says it works against only 1 enemy, but if someone were to also have Group Impression diplomacy feat I would expand it to work against more because I think the writing of Emissary of Peace was phrased with respect to how Make an Impression normally works (1 enemy) but unfortunately they hardcoded the number of enemies if works on by doing so.
Using a skill like Lie is different than just blurting something out. its making a skill check to get a mechanical change of some kind.
Lie is 1 full round to do, that actually means it takes all your actions for a turn and you cant react because doing so would mean you didn't take the full round to Lie. (this part is up for debate but its how I would run anything that takes a full round rather than just 3 actions)
But none of this matters really for two reasons.
1st - Lie results refer to the act as taking place in a conversation, charming liar also uses the reference. So first the hostile encounter must be one where the foe would be even willing to engage in conversation at all.
2nd - What are you trying to do with the lie? what are you lying about? is it believable? would the foe even care if its just trying to kill you? and as Finoan suggested would your actions or party's actions instantly counter the believably of the lie(or have previous actions made that kind of lie impossible to believe).
So I would say yes you can lie in combat, but only if you can also have a conversation with that foe in combat (not impossible but is this particular situation one where it can happen?) and finally if using charming lair and you succeeded at improving the foes attitude any hostile action from either side could negate it immediately.
And all of that is why I look at the Diplomacy's Make an Impression, and note that Charming Liar is trying to accomplish the same thing but using deception, so I would rule that it takes the same amount of time (1 minute).
Something that is Hostile might not be attacking, but anything that is attacking is Hostile.
So a mindless undead attacking you has a Hostile disposition towards you?
No. You're using the fallacy of equivocation: You're using the word "hostile" both in the sense of the condition as defined in the rules and once as the generic English term.
Please do not use misleading logical fallacies.
1st - Lie results refer to the act as taking place in a conversation, charming liar also uses the reference. So first the hostile encounter must be one where the foe would be even willing to engage in conversation at all.
In War of the Immortals, the goddess PHARASMA WILL DIE!
That was a lie. It remains a lie whether you reply or not. So no, you don't need a conversation to lie. You can lie as long as you can talk, regardless of the other side talking or not.
Something that is Hostile might not be attacking, but anything that is attacking is Hostile.So a mindless undead attacking you has a Hostile disposition towards you?
No. You're using the fallacy of equivocation: You're using the word "hostile" both in the sense of the condition as defined in the rules and once as the generic English term.
Please do not use misleading logical fallacies.
1st - Lie results refer to the act as taking place in a conversation, charming liar also uses the reference. So first the hostile encounter must be one where the foe would be even willing to engage in conversation at all.In War of the Immortals, the goddess PHARASMA WILL DIE!
That was a lie. It remains a lie whether you reply or not. So no, you don't need a conversation to lie. You can lie as long as you can talk, regardless of the other side talking or not.
You can shout it out without using the lie action.
But if you want the affect of the lie skill behind that lie along with the benefits of charming liar you need to use the skill which requires 1 full round and the results do suggest your using it as part of a conversation. What it seems like it was meant for (and this is opinion) was for 1 round in social encounters. Using it in combat encounters was not barred as it is written but it seems like that wasnt what they had in mind when they wrote the skill.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Lying in combat could also cause some metagaming debates. Suppose the enemy Lies to the PCs in combat. Even if the check succeeds, the enemy seemingly standing there doing nothing completely gives away to the real-life players that this is a Lie. Because if the enemy wasn't Lying, they'd have actions to do other things.
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Lying in combat could also cause some metagaming debates. Suppose the enemy Lies to the PCs in combat. Even if the check succeeds, the enemy seemingly standing there doing nothing completely gives away to the real-life players that this is a Lie. Because if the enemy wasn't Lying, they'd have actions to do other things.
Interesting point but im thibking as a GM my players wouldnt assume its a lie for that reason. They might assume its a lie for other reasons though.
The bandit leader youve been fighting stops swinging his sword at you and begins to plead with you saying he was forced into this life and wants to a chance at redemption.Hmmm im not sure lie is the only thing that could be happening here just cause he stopped attacking and started talking.
Lying in combat could also cause some metagaming debates. Suppose the enemy Lies to the PCs in combat. Even if the check succeeds, the enemy seemingly standing there doing nothing completely gives away to the real-life players that this is a Lie. Because if the enemy wasn't Lying, they'd have actions to do other things.Interesting point but im thibking as a GM my players wouldnt assume its a lie for that reason. They might assume its a lie for other reasons though.
The bandit leader youve been fighting stops swinging his sword at you and begins to plead with you saying he was forced into this life and wants to a chance at redemption.
Hmmm im not sure lie is the only thing that could be happening here just cause he stopped attacking and started talking.
Combat might just end full stop if that happens, though I've had a player try to kill the surrendering enemy after combat ended. The enemy was telling the truth, btw.
Combat might just end full stop if that happens
though I've had a player try to kill the surrendering enemy after combat ended
Combat might just end full stop if that happens, though I've had a player try to kill the surrendering enemy after combat ended. The enemy was telling the truth, btw.Lying in combat could also cause some metagaming debates. Suppose the enemy Lies to the PCs in combat. Even if the check succeeds, the enemy seemingly standing there doing nothing completely gives away to the real-life players that this is a Lie. Because if the enemy wasn't Lying, they'd have actions to do other things.Interesting point but im thibking as a GM my players wouldnt assume its a lie for that reason. They might assume its a lie for other reasons though.
The bandit leader youve been fighting stops swinging his sword at you and begins to plead with you saying he was forced into this life and wants to a chance at redemption.
Hmmm im not sure lie is the only thing that could be happening here just cause he stopped attacking and started talking.
I guess I would say narrative blending between encounters and other modes if run fluidly will leave players unable to tell the difference.
Also encounter mode will still keep going just it might change from combat to a social encounter. or go back and forth or be a hybrid of the two with some characters still trying to fight and others trying to talk. Either way a good GMing makes it seamless.