Plant Banner - THP "Renewal"


Commander Class Discussion


Looking at the Plant Banner skill, I'm not sure how to interpret this.

"All allies within a 30-foot burst immediately gain a number of temporary Hit Points equal to half your Intelligence modifier. *These temporary Hit Points* last for 1 round; each time an ally starts their turn within the burst, *these Hit Points* are renewed for another round."

Many people seem to think the amount of THP received after the initial burst is replenished each round if they stay in range, but the way it is written I'm not so sure. It says "these hit points," referring to the hit points received in the initial burst, "last for 1 round"; then again "these hit points" (presumably the same hit points received from the initial burst) are "renewed for an additional round."

If they replenish every single round, this ability is absolutely busted in my mind; for comparison, look at the Wood Kineticist Aura Junction, which grants 1 THP/round in their 10' aura at level 5, scaling up to 2 THP at level 10 and 3 THP at level 15.


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IMO, it happens every round.

Keep in mind, you can't use Banner tag abilities with your banner planted. It can also be easily removed by enemies, or destroyed.

It's a risky thing to do, so it should give a good reward.

I do agree the wording could be cleaner.


It's definitely a decision to plant it, but it's just unclear in my mind what the intention was, given how much higher and faster it scales than any other similar ability.

I'm guessing the option for enemies to destroy your banner will go away, since it basically just ruins the class (and destroys their fun entirely), and especially since there is nothing indicating what would destroy it. Does it have HP/AC? Not sure there is any other weakness like that in all of the other classes? For instance, I don't believe there are any rules stating that Thaumaturge Esoterica can be destroyed.

Just my 2c, Commander is super interesting, but I'm definitely looking forward to the final version and clarifications on some of these things.


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It is temp HP equal to half of your INT modifier.

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We are talking about 2 to 3 temp HP.

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For the entire level 1 - 20 campaign.

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And as far as I can tell, that is the only benefit that Plant Banner gives.

Everything else in that rather large block of rules text is restrictions and detriments and risks.

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Yes. It is ambiguous.

But one interpretation clearly does not pass the Ambiguous Rules rule.


It scales up at level 5 to full INT mod (so 4-5) and to Level+Int mod at level 15 (so 20-26). For a level 1 Feat and for 1 action.

It also makes your aura 40' burst instead of 30' emanation, keeps your hands empty if you want to wield 2h weapon, and is from an RP perspective just pretty sweet/cinematic.

4 THP/round at will for your entire party is just massive imo, and is at level 5 almost 2x better than a Kineticist aura junction (which is a huge investment in comparison).


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It could use a middle step between 5 and 20 THP.

Int + half level at level at level 10.

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Ran a table tonight with a Commander 1 (party was mixed lvl 1 and 2).

The temp hps from Plant Banner easily soaked up about half the damage dealt through 3 fights -- it basically wiped out one enemy group's 1d4 AoE attack (which went off multiple times, but to no practical effect due to the banner).

Yeah, the scalability is suspect, but I came away really impressed with it.


pH unbalanced wrote:

Ran a table tonight with a Commander 1 (party was mixed lvl 1 and 2).

The temp hps from Plant Banner easily soaked up about half the damage dealt through 3 fights -- it basically wiped out one enemy group's 1d4 AoE attack (which went off multiple times, but to no practical effect due to the banner).

Yeah, the scalability is suspect, but I came away really impressed with it.

Nice! Yeah it seems really strong. Maybe it should have the Sustain trait.


Noted on the scaling. That at least makes it not worthless at higher levels. I still don't think that it is going to absorb more than one hit worth of damage per round though.

Rydia420lol wrote:
4 THP/round at will for your entire party is just massive imo, and is at level 5 almost 2x better than a Kineticist aura junction (which is a huge investment in comparison).

The Wood Kineticist also isn't risking anything by using it. They aren't putting the entire party at risk of becoming frightened, or risking being unable to use the majority of their class abilities for some unspecified amount of time.


Yeah, but it's 4/round in 40' or 1/round within 10', so it's still a dramatic difference. I think the kineticist aura is underpowered (and it definitely scales poorly), so it's mostly just that the banner makes that more apparent to me.


For analysis of how well Plant Banner feels to play for playtest feedback, comparing to the Kineticist aura makes sense.

For interpreting the rules of Plant Banner, comparing to Kineticist Aura is a bit of a red herring. The amount and scaling aren't ambiguous. The only question is between getting the meager amount of temp HP once, or once per round.


I think it just needs to be rewritten for clarity. I really still don't know how the actual mechanic is intended to work.


Do you guys think the Int modifier is going to survive in the final release? I feel there isn't a ton of feats that use ability modifiers and rather have set numbers which you add or substract to something. Probably I'm missing some feats and abilities but I feel its certainly uncommon.

I also feel the scaling from this feat is a little off. It goes from inconsequential, to something okay-ish?, to fantastic. I think the curve could be smoothed a little to be decent at all levels.


Almost sure. As I said before we never saw a playtest class changing its main attribute. Usually the designers themselves created the class concept around that attribute (or multiple attributes) and don't like the idea of its being changed.

Is way more probably that they give more utility to Int than change the attribute.


I didn't meant Int as KAS, I meant Int in the Plant Banner feat.


exequiel759 wrote:
I didn't meant Int as KAS, I meant Int in the Plant Banner feat.

I don't see why not.

It's not like Plant Banner is a core feature, and there aren't overly many things requiring Int.

So you can still play Str/Con command.

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