Just a quick question what do you think makes some one a power game
As opposed to an optimizer
yeah- i think kestral's pretty much right...
an optimizer wants to make an effective (or sometimes 'the most effective possible') version of their character concept. a power gamer just wants to be the best. i'm generally an optimizer- i generate a character concept (including background/personality/etc) and then look for ways to mechanically build that concept so that it will allow him to be effective and successful. partly, for me, this involves thinking to myself if i knew my life was going to depend on these skills and abilities what would i try to learn/practice? and then asking what things this character would have had the opportunity to learn develop...
a power gamer generally isn't very concerned with story, concept, or theme- they make all their decisions best on being the best at X, or building to combination of powers that put the game on easy mode.
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It depends on who's using the word. Me, I use them as synonyms. Also, I don't think being a power gamer is necessarily a bad thing. If someone can play well with others, share spotlight, enjoy the RP parts of the game, then I'm perfectly happy with them having a powerful character.
Yesterday I GM'ed the Sanos Abduction. I was quite happy to have some socially well-adjusted power gamers at the table, because the scenario is pretty deadly, not really suited for casual characters. It was a fun session with lots of RP.
Ascalaphus has it right, everyone has their own definitions for powergamer/optimizer/minmaxer/munchkin.
For me, the first three are synonyms, the 4th is a cheatyface.
As Ascalaphus started to hit on, there is also a big difference between a power gamer and munchkin. A power gamer at least still is part of the group.
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A power gamer plays for the power fantasy.
An optimizer, optimizes their character.
There is some overlap, but they are not the same thing.
There are also nice powergamers, and those that are a pain.
In the pain instances...powergamer and munchkin are very similar if not the same.
The pain powergamer will twist and turn rules to their advantage and argue with the GM about them and how they are not being applied correctly if it doesn't work exactly as they think it should.
an Optimizer is one who milks the most benefit out of their character they possibly can, a power gamer is one who is purely playing for the power fantasy and the feel of performing the slaughter. most power gamers play wizards and completely ignore the use of common sense to defeat their wizard with nonmagical means because it isn't "RAW" and refuse to accept that the use of flour, as dictated by common sense would make their flying invisible monstrosity visible enough to attack or dismiss the use of an optional rule where a foot thick wall of stone is used to negate their scrying attempts because it isn't RAW and they are all about empowerment, and don't like the idea of consistent cheap ways to negate their powergaming ways
1st Houserule i will be adopting from Kirthfinder
a 1 foot thick wall of stone blocks divination spells and teleportation effects
2nd houserule
when it comes to cheap nonmagical solutions used to defeat magic or to the performing of heroic deeds, common sense, as well as science fiction precedent trumps RAW in the former and Cinematic Action supersedes RAW in the latter
meaning for example, because they covered hollow man in fake skin to track him, you can use a bag of flour, a bucket of paint or a cloud of sand to dispel invisibility as per a glitterdust spell
or, superstitious barbarian learns to recognize beneficial magic even when raging and can be healed and buffed normally when raging, or spell resistance doesn't apply to healing and buffing spells or to spells that solely inflict energy damage
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an Optimizer is one who milks the most benefit out of their character they possibly can, a power gamer is one who is purely playing for the power fantasy and the feel of performing the slaughter. most power gamers play wizards and completely ignore the use of common sense to defeat their wizard with nonmagical means because it isn't "RAW" and refuse to accept that the use of flour, as dictated by common sense would make their flying invisible monstrosity visible enough to attack or dismiss the use of an optional rule where a foot thick wall of stone is used to negate their scrying attempts because it isn't RAW and they are all about empowerment, and don't like the idea of consistent cheap ways to negate their powergaming ways
1st Houserule i will be adopting from Kirthfinder
a 1 foot thick wall of stone blocks divination spells and teleportation effects
2nd houserule
when it comes to cheap nonmagical solutions used to defeat magic or to the performing of heroic deeds, common sense, as well as science fiction precedent trumps RAW in the former and Cinematic Action supersedes RAW in the latter
meaning for example, because they covered hollow man in fake skin to track him, you can use a bag of flour, a bucket of paint or a cloud of sand to dispel invisibility as per a glitterdust spell
or, superstitious barbarian learns to recognize beneficial magic even when raging and can be healed and buffed normally when raging, or spell resistance doesn't apply to healing and buffing spells or to spells that solely inflict energy damage
You're not bitter or anything.
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I think I agree with the above posters basically my test can be summed up as. . .
When trying to create say a baytlemage
Optimizer: When forced to choose between vital concept component X and powerful ability Y will take the vital concept component. When not forced to make that choice will take powerful abilities.
Powergamer: When forced to choose between vital concept component X and powerful ability Y will take the ability and adjust the concept.
Munchkin: Never even looks at concept and just takes any powerful abilities they can then look for a way to add more like trading away their ability to rhyme on purpose for am extra +1 to attack from the optional drawback rule in the PDF only 3rd party supplement that was widely panned by the small audience who saw it in Romania during its brief sale period in 1982 for a similar system
It seems that on forums the general consensus is optimizer = good, powergamer = bad. At my table, we call someone who's known for creating powerful characters "good at the game." Or we'll say things like "that player really knows what they're doing."
If a player starts to violate their character background or the campaign setting story line in their quest to obtain more mechanical power, we'd call them an optimizer or powergamer.
Everyone has different methods of creating characters, but I think a good test for this is to formulate a character concept first before building the character.
If the concept is fleshed out enough, then there will likely be some barriers to certain classes/skills/feats implicit in the character's concept. If the player changes their concept in order to avoid one of their barriers, then they are an optimizer or powergamer.
The power gamer is not necessarily bad for the group, but if the GM's story requires making the PCs not feel powerful then the powergamer is going to be disruptive.
Most present power gamers can optimize well. That way they get their power straight from the rules and don't depend on things the GM can easily take away without abandoning certain staring premises.
Actually, a power gamer is defined as someone who makes a character more effective than yours. As you can see this bar can vary wildly depending on who you ask.
An optimizer on the other hand is simply someone who focuses on the mechanical side of the game. They look for synergies and worry over making a concept as effective as their skill (or the internet's skill) can make the character.
Munchkins are cheaters at the worst end often ignoring the marking off of expendables or 'claiming' they rolled better than they did when no one caught their die roll. Or concept stompers at best who take a wildly varying set of character creation options that could never exist without crazy opportunities lining up to create their monster of a PC. Fluff is the first casualty of the munchkin.
An optimizer is a broad term, and power gamer is more specific. To me they try to make the best character they can for the purpose of winning, but tend to do so within the spirit of the rules.
To me an optimizer is a guy who chooses to do one thing really well and a powergamer is a guy who tries to either do a lot of things well or tries to avoid having his character be vulnerable to a lot of different things. Captain immunity.
I don't mind optimizers because even though they can do one thing really well, they leave a lot of things for you to exploit. They've chosen their achilles heels and are ok with having them exploited a bit. Powergamer tries his best not to even need other party members and hates when his vulnerabilities are exploited.
But that's just me.
To me an optimizer is a guy who chooses to do one thing really well and a powergamer is a guy who tries to either do a lot of things well or tries to avoid having his character be vulnerable to a lot of different things. Captain immunity.
I don't mind optimizers because even though they can do one thing really well, they leave a lot of things for you to exploit. They've chosen their achilles heels and are ok with having them exploited a bit. Powergamer tries his best not to even need other party members and hates when his vulnerabilities are exploited.
But that's just me.
So what do you call someone who tries to avoid weaknesses, but is a good sport when his vulnerabilities are exploited?
It depends on who's using the word. Me, I use them as synonyms. Also, I don't think being a power gamer is necessarily a bad thing. If someone can play well with others, share spotlight, enjoy the RP parts of the game, then I'm perfectly happy with them having a powerful character.
See, all you've done here is change the definition of the term and made it meaningless.
Let's a compare a good husband with a bad husband, shall we? A good husband is faithful, good to his wife, good to his kids, and supports his family.
And you know what? That's pretty much synonymous with a bad husband. So long as the bad husband doesn't cheat, doesn't hurt or neglect his wife or his kids, and doesn't quit his job and become a slacker.
Yeah, in that case, "good husband" and "bad husband" ARE pretty much synonymous. Good job!
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I have system mastery. You are an optimizer. He is a powergamer. They are a bunch of munchkins.
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So what do you call someone who tries to avoid weaknesses, but is a good sport when his vulnerabilities are exploited?To me an optimizer is a guy who chooses to do one thing really well and a powergamer is a guy who tries to either do a lot of things well or tries to avoid having his character be vulnerable to a lot of different things. Captain immunity.
I don't mind optimizers because even though they can do one thing really well, they leave a lot of things for you to exploit. They've chosen their achilles heels and are ok with having them exploited a bit. Powergamer tries his best not to even need other party members and hates when his vulnerabilities are exploited.
But that's just me.
I believe I would call them a welcome respit.
As long as they are willing to roleplay a character instead of just a bunch of math and are actively engaged at the table, I frankly don't care what we call the players.
If however they either chat with one another out of character about RL or when in game just wait around for something to happen to their character then it doesn't really matter how well optimized for DPR/Diplomacy/Debuffing they are does it?