Arazni and Iomedae’s Dynamic


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


The more I read about Arazni and Iomedae’s relationship, the more I become fascinated with it and the more I really want the latter to survive.
Iomedae was originally a paladin specifically of Arazni (Inner Sea Gods, 77), back when Arazni was Aroden’s herald—and Iomedae was also the leader of the Knights of Ozem (who considered Arazni their “patron saint” (Knights of Lastwall, 8)) who bound her and forced her to lead the Shining Crusade against Tar-Baphon*, who ended up killing her, allowing her to eventually be transformed unwillingly into a lich by Geb (Knights of Lastwall, 9).
Arazni’s whole thing as a god (okay, not her whole thing, that’s a bit reductive), of course, is that she doesn’t forgive (see, for instance, her edicts in Gods and Magic, 54). And yet there’s no specification of her holding the hatred one might expect towards Iomedae (although she absolutely has a grudge and is resentful, she doesn’t seem to blame her)—in fact, “a small part of her takes comfort and even pride in Iomedae’s achievements” (Eulogy for Roslar’s Coffer, 72).

*I’m not sure if Iomedae was the one who bound Arazni, or if she even gave the order for it, but there’s no specification that she didn’t, and frankly, it would be weird for something this big to happen under the leader’s nose. The idea that Iomedae gave at least tacit approval to binding Arazni is supported by their creator, Erik Mona, in this thread although, as he himself notes, messageboard posts are generally only “quasi-canonical”.


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I'd never put together that Iomedae could've had a hand in getting Arazni bound and killed, that's fascinating.


They never really say it explicitly, but, as near as I can tell, there’s no reason for it not to be the case (maybe they want to leave it “ambiguous” so they can decide later?). I do wonder why—perhaps it was a “desperate times call for desperate measures” sort of thing? (Especially interesting, given Iomedae as we know her now is Honorable-with-a-capital-H). Maybe she thought it was Arazni’s duty as a “soldier” of Aroden? But if so, why would she think Aroden’s herald, who she had enough faith in to literally worship and be a paladin of, wouldn’t do her duty unless forced?


Prismatic “Mat” Gay wrote:
They never really say it explicitly, but, as near as I can tell, there’s no reason for it not to be the case (maybe they want to leave it “ambiguous” so they can decide later?). I do wonder why—perhaps it was a “desperate times call for desperate measures” sort of thing? (Especially interesting, given Iomedae as we know her now is Honorable-with-a-capital-H). Maybe she thought it was Arazni’s duty as a “soldier” of Aroden? But if so, why would she think Aroden’s herald, who she had enough faith in to literally worship and be a paladin of, wouldn’t do her duty unless forced?

To be clear, this isn’t a criticism of the writing—it’s a puzzle I’m genuinely interested in unravelling!


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I don't know any strict canon sources on this question, but since Iomedae only just joined the knights two years before they summoned Arazni, I suspect and prefer to believe she was only a rank-and-file member still. In fact, personally I feel like the most logical point where Iomedae officially becomes the general and leader of the knights is when she rallies the troops in the wake of Arazni's death, but she could easily have risen sometime in the 5 years between the summoning and the Battle of Three Sorrows.

This is not to say there's no way Iomedae could have been in charge of Arazni's binding (at minimum it's likely she was a participant) but it doesn't seem terribly consistent with her character and what we've glimpsed of the relationship between the goddesses that Iomedae was the one to give the order to bind Arazni to their will. The story of how Iomedae could have made such a mistake would be an interesting one, but doesn't entirely sit right with me in light of her calling upon Arazni in a show of faith for her Fourth Act, which could well have been in that same five-year span.


Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

I don't know any strict canon sources on this question, but since Iomedae only just joined the knights two years before they summoned Arazni, I suspect and prefer to believe she was only a rank-and-file member still. In fact, personally I feel like the most logical point where Iomedae officially becomes the general and leader of the knights is when she rallies the troops in the wake of Arazni's death, but she could easily have risen sometime in the 5 years between the summoning and the Battle of Three Sorrows.

This is not to say there's no way Iomedae could have been in charge of Arazni's binding (at minimum it's likely she was a participant) but it doesn't seem terribly consistent with her character and what we've glimpsed of the relationship between the goddesses that Iomedae was the one to give the order to bind Arazni to their will. The story of how Iomedae could have made such a mistake would be an interesting one, but doesn't entirely sit right with me in light of her calling upon Arazni in a show of faith for her Fourth Act, which could well have been in that same five-year span.

Yeah, that’s what I initially assumed, but I was just reading Knights of Lastwall, and it says

“3816 AR The mortal Iomedae joins the Shining Crusade and becomes leader of the Knights of Ozem.
3818 AR The Knights of Ozem summon Arazni to battle the Whispering Tyrant, using magic to force her appearance rather than beseech her aid.” (Knights of Lastwall, 9)


The Windsong Testaments about Iomedae’s Acts, published in 2019, says that “[d]uring the Second Battle of Encharthan, Iomedae’s legacy grew as she took command of a regiment of mortally wounded knights and held back a wave of wraiths long enough for reinforcements to arrive at dawn,” with no mention of Arazni’s presence.
Meanwhile, Inner Sea Gods, published in 2014, states that Iomedae’s Fourth Act was when “[w]ith heartfelt words and an prayer to Arazni, she convinced a regiment of mortally wounded knights at the Second Battle of Encarthan to hold back a wave of wraiths long enough for reinforcements to arrive at dawn” (Inner Sea Gods, 81).

In my personal opinion, I think it’s possible that Iomedae’s Fourth Act wasn’t empowered by Arazni, and that the prayer was a morale thing she invoked—especially since “Arazni [was]…the patron saint of the Shining Crusade, and the victories she achieved inspired ever more crusaders to flock to the front lines” (Knights of Lastwall, 8)—but I also think that it’s possible (probably more possible than the alternative) that Arazni would’ve chosen to bestow a divine blessing or something upon Iomedae even under her circumstances, since she was evidently willing to continue granting Iomedae her smites and spells despite Iomedae almost definitely carrying some level of blame for Arazni’s binding. Maybe Herald!Arazni was particularly forgiving, and/or saw it as necessary for the greater good she pursued as a LG angel?

EDIT: Got rid of the discussion of PathfinderWiki and The Sixfold Trial because it wasn’t really relevant.
EDIT 2: Fixed a spot where I somehow accidentally wrote Iomedae instead of Arazni


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Totally agreed that Iomedae had a hand in Arazni's death! I've mentioned it here and on Reddit a few times and to put it lightly, folks did not agree despite having some clear sources showing it was the case, so it's nice to see other people are putting those pieces together. Might not be too holy, but it sure is some vindication!

I pretty firmly believe that Iomedae was the one to give the order to bind Arazni. My take on the Fourth Act was that it happened before Iomedae summoned and then bound Arazni. It's also possible that it happened post-binding but pre-death, because the Knights summoned her in 3818 and then she was killed by the Whispering Tyrant in 3823. Hell, it's possible Arazni didn't even know about the binding until the battle where it got her killed.

Liberty's Edge

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Do not remember where I read it on these boards, but I am absolutely sure that Iomedae was not the leader of the Knights of Ozem when they bound Arazni and that she did not know about it at all before it happened.

Iomedae is the ultimate and ideal LG knight in shining armor. There is absolutely zero way she would allow her goddess to be betrayed so.


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Pardon, I hadn't meant to imply that Iomedae calling upon Arazni in the Fourth Act resulted in any physical manifestation. We really seem to have too little information about the Fourth Act to place it any more clearly than during the Shining Crusade. Rather I meant to show that Iomedae's faith in Arazni was such that (whether through divine blessing or simple morale) she turned the tide of the battle, which seemed to me at odds with the more coldly practical image of ordering her goddess bound to her will so that she couldn't be turned against them somehow.

Even so, unless Knights of Lastwall is in error in describing Iomedae becoming commander of the knights of Ozem in her first year of joining, either she gave the order (and I see now your link to Erik Mona's post) or somebody in her command acted without her approval, which would be unlikely until such a time that more concrete details about the event are released--if that time ever comes.

This in mind, it certainly is an interesting choice to have the setting's chief deity of paladins have enslaved her own goddess when she was mortal. One that only adds to the potential drama of any future interactions! That being the case, my first impression of Arazni continuing to grant Iomedae and the knights powers and spells after binding is a matter of her being like "Of course it only makes sense... this is just for the best... right?" in that weird way when you're not entirely certain somebody who cares about you really is violating your agency as long as it's just a formality.

--

Incidentally, I was under the impression that Arazni's alignment had been NG, not LG, as an angel. Tangentially related to that, do we actually have any sources that confirm Arazni died because of the binding, or is it simply that she happened to die while so bound, engaged in a fight she was explicitly willing to join before the binding?

Liberty's Edge

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Prismatic “Mat” Gay wrote:
Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

I don't know any strict canon sources on this question, but since Iomedae only just joined the knights two years before they summoned Arazni, I suspect and prefer to believe she was only a rank-and-file member still. In fact, personally I feel like the most logical point where Iomedae officially becomes the general and leader of the knights is when she rallies the troops in the wake of Arazni's death, but she could easily have risen sometime in the 5 years between the summoning and the Battle of Three Sorrows.

This is not to say there's no way Iomedae could have been in charge of Arazni's binding (at minimum it's likely she was a participant) but it doesn't seem terribly consistent with her character and what we've glimpsed of the relationship between the goddesses that Iomedae was the one to give the order to bind Arazni to their will. The story of how Iomedae could have made such a mistake would be an interesting one, but doesn't entirely sit right with me in light of her calling upon Arazni in a show of faith for her Fourth Act, which could well have been in that same five-year span.

Yeah, that’s what I initially assumed, but I was just reading Knights of Lastwall, and it says

“3816 AR The mortal Iomedae joins the Shining Crusade and becomes leader of the Knights of Ozem.
3818 AR The Knights of Ozem summon Arazni to battle the Whispering Tyrant, using magic to force her appearance rather than beseech her aid.” (Knights of Lastwall, 9)

I really believe Knights of Lastwall should have stated : “3816 AR The mortal Iomedae joins the Shining Crusade and later becomes leader of the Knights of Ozem.

3818 AR The Knights of Ozem summon Arazni to battle the Whispering Tyrant, using magic to force her appearance rather than beseech her aid.”

It seems to be what was in “The Glorious Reclamation” in The Hellfire Compact, 69. Paizo Inc., 2016, based on this book being the source for what appears on Pathfinderwiki : "After joining the Shining Crusade in about 3816 AR, she ascended to lead the Knights of Ozem in the struggle against the forces of the Whispering Tyrant.
Years of struggle brought about many great feats..."

No way a simple mortal, no matter how gifted, would join the Shining Crusade and within one year become the leader of the Knights of Ozem.

It is the years of struggle and the many great feats mentioned above that allowed her to rise.

I feel also that this take is far more compatible with what we know of Iomedae's values and actions and of Arazni's principles and behaviour.

No way things would be as they are now if Iomedae had betrayed Arazni.


First--it's entirely possible that I got Arazni's original alignment wrong; I'm honestly not sure if it was ever listed.

Second--if they wanted Iomedae to have joined and become later in separate years, it would've said something like "3816 AR Iomedae joins the Knights of Ozem" "3820 AR Iomedae becomes leader of the Knights of Ozem"; having it be in the same year unless it was well, in the same year, doesn't make much sense. While it's absolutely a possibility that some sort of error happened and made it to print, I don't think it's necessary the most likely scenario?

I think Iomedae's rapid rise makes more sense if you consider the possibility that the Knights weren't necessarily a prominent organization when she joined. While the description of Taldor being "aided by the dwarven kingdom of Kraggodan and the Knights of Ozem" (Inner Sea World Guide, 98) does place them alongside a kingdom and thus suggest a certain amount of importance, they are literally not noted as having participated in any historical events before then. Additionally, on the same page, the ISWG also says "[f]rom all of Taldor's provinces along the Inner Sea crusaders assembled." Since Cheliax was still under Taldan control at this point, Iomedae, as a Cheliaxian, would have been one of those Taldan crusaders, even if she was in a subfaction. I theorize that the Knights were a pretty small-time order before the Crusade, when Iomedae's skills first caused her herself to rise to the rank of leader ("Iomedae rose to prominence in the era of the Shining Crusade, when she led the Knights of Ozem is a series of victories over the Whispering Tyrant" (Inner Sea World Guide, 222)), and then caused the Knights as a whole to rise in prominence due to her leadership ability, and, of course, eventually, the aid of a frigging herald.
(Of course, if someone has one of the many sourcebooks I don't have on hand and can contradict this, I'd welcome the, if not clarity, at least more certainty)

Additionally, Arazni's resentment of the Knights of Ozem is...not as intense as I thought it would be? While her binding is described as "an arrogance that planted the seed of mistrust that would lead to her defeat" (which, honestly, I'm not sure what exactly that means?) (Knights of Lastwall, 8), and it is specified that "many among the sentinels recall the the betrayal of the Knights of Ozem, and...[are] deeply loath to trust the goddess [Arazni]" (Knights of Lastwall, 29), she doesn't seem to have any desire to actually harm them or anything. In fact, I could make a good case--and others have--that she is probably one of the divinities empowering the Crimson Reclaimers, who are in many ways the literal and metaphorical descendants of the Knights of Ozem.
If the Knights weren't that prominent and/or were originally a small force, their decision to bind her could have been more understandable, maybe??? Either way, they at the very least take a back seat to her grudges against Tar-Baphon and Geb (very understandably, considering that they had no intention of letting her die, and didn't force her to do anything she wouldn't have done or been willing to do otherwise (the binding of the Knights still sucks, let's be clear, but it was probably much more palatable than being controlled by Geb, for a variety of reasons).


Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

Pardon, I hadn't meant to imply that Iomedae calling upon Arazni in the Fourth Act resulted in any physical manifestation. We really seem to have too little information about the Fourth Act to place it any more clearly than during the Shining Crusade. Rather I meant to show that Iomedae's faith in Arazni was such that (whether through divine blessing or simple morale) she turned the tide of the battle, which seemed to me at odds with the more coldly practical image of ordering her goddess bound to her will so that she couldn't be turned against them somehow.

Even so, unless Knights of Lastwall is in error in describing Iomedae becoming commander of the knights of Ozem in her first year of joining, either she gave the order (and I see now your link to Erik Mona's post) or somebody in her command acted without her approval, which would be unlikely until such a time that more concrete details about the event are released--if that time ever comes.

This in mind, it certainly is an interesting choice to have the setting's chief deity of paladins have enslaved her own goddess when she was mortal. One that only adds to the potential drama of any future interactions! That being the case, my first impression of Arazni continuing to grant Iomedae and the knights powers and spells after binding is a matter of her being like "Of course it only makes sense... this is just for the best... right?" in that weird way when you're not entirely certain somebody who cares about you really is violating your agency as long as it's just a formality.

--

Incidentally, I was under the impression that Arazni's alignment had been NG, not LG, as an angel. Tangentially related to that, do we actually have any sources that confirm Arazni died because of the binding, or is it simply that she happened to die while so bound, engaged in a fight she was explicitly willing to join before the binding?

I think she didn’t die because of the binding—I’m pretty sure in Pathfinder, heralds just die if you kill them, because they’re not powerful enough to resurrect like demon lords or what have you—except for in the indirect sense that she wouldn’t’ve been in the fight that got her killed if she wasn’t bound.


I mean, the sources about Arazni’s binding say that it planted seeds of doubt and mistrust in her mind, so she may have just looked past it because she thought it was for the greater good.

Plus, though Iomedae is the archetypal Knight in Shining Armor, especially as a mortal, people don’t always act with perfect righteousness. She may be truly, cosmically, capital letters Lawful Good now after having been kicking around in heaven for a milennia, but in her mortal life she probably had to make some hard decisions regarding Arazni. In terms of how it got her killed, it’s stated that the Tar-Baphon toyed with and then killed Arazni. I imagine that if she wasn’t bound, she could’ve gone back to the Outer Planes and recuperated. The wording of the binding is specifically that they “bound her to their will.” I can imagine that the Tyrant had Arazni on the ropes, and even if she wanted to retreat, the Knight’s will was that Arazni fight him, and so that was all she could do.

About the timing of her leadership, if the official sources timing of her rapidly becoming their leader feels off, this is how I see it. In the Windsong Testaments, it’s clearly stated that she perfom the first of her three acts before the start of the Shining Crusade. She had made quite the name for herself as a paladin of Arazni, and when she joined the Knights of Ozem, having such a strong and renowned paladin as their leader would’ve been really great for them. Even the earliest substantial sources we have about Iomedae (the article about her in Council of Thieves) links her joining the Shining Crusade with leading the Knights. Essentially, I can’t see any way that Iomedae didn’t have a hand in the binding and subsequent death of Arazni. The timing is so strongly established as to seem deliberate on the part of the writers.

Edit: Also in terms of Arazni’s alignment, angels can be any good alignment. I don’t think her pre-lichdom alignment was stated, but LG seems fitting for the herald of a LN god. As with Prismatic Gay’s other posts, totally agreed! I had the thought that the Crimson Reclaimers might be empowered over the Shining Sentinels precisely because they break with the traditional role of the Knights of Ozem. They break the mold of crusaders with the nuance of admitting that not all undead are willing and inherently evil, so Arazni might see that as worth preserving over the blindly zealous knights who got her killed.

Radiant Oath

Quote:
No way a simple mortal, no matter how gifted, would join the Shining Crusade and within one year become the leader of the Knights of Ozem.

It's not impossible that she was 12th level and renowned in some other way, is it? There's no mention of her age. Maybe she had been fighting in some smaller conflict and earned the respect to take over.


Simeon wrote:

I mean, the sources about Arazni’s binding say that it planted seeds of doubt and mistrust in her mind, so she may have just looked past it because she thought it was for the greater good.

Plus, though Iomedae is the archetypal Knight in Shining Armor, especially as a mortal, people don’t always act with perfect righteousness. She may be truly, cosmically, capital letters Lawful Good now after having been kicking around in heaven for a milennia, but in her mortal life she probably had to make some hard decisions regarding Arazni. In terms of how it got her killed, it’s stated that the Tar-Baphon toyed with and then killed Arazni. I imagine that if she wasn’t bound, she could’ve gone back to the Outer Planes and recuperated. The wording of the binding is specifically that they “bound her to their will.” I can imagine that the Tyrant had Arazni on the ropes, and even if she wanted to retreat, the Knight’s will was that Arazni fight him, and so that was all she could do.

About the timing of her leadership, if the official sources timing of her rapidly becoming their leader feels off, this is how I see it. In the Windsong Testaments, it’s clearly stated that she perfom the first of her three acts before the start of the Shining Crusade. She had made quite the name for herself as a paladin of Arazni, and when she joined the Knights of Ozem, having such a strong and renowned paladin as their leader would’ve been really great for them. Even the earliest substantial sources we have about Iomedae (the article about her in Council of Thieves) links her joining the Shining Crusade with leading the Knights. Essentially, I can’t see any way that Iomedae didn’t have a hand in the binding and subsequent death of Arazni. The timing is so strongly established as to seem deliberate on the part of the writers.

Edit: Also in terms of Arazni’s alignment, angels can be any good alignment. I don’t think her pre-lichdom alignment was stated, but LG seems fitting for the herald of a LN god. As with Prismatic Gay’s other...

After seeing your post, I just went back and re-checked the Windsong Testament about Iomedae’s Acts and it turns out WOW she had done quite a lot before she joined!

James Jacobs/The Windsong Testaments wrote:

First came her memorable clash with legendary Nakorshor’mond, a gluttonous monstrosity spawned and abandoned by Lamashtu. The glutton consumed members of her adventuring group, and Iomedae had to cut her companions free from otherwise eternal slumber from the fiend’s supernatural gullets.

Next was her defeat of the Pallid Sisters, a coven of Garundi witches who had been terrorizing the city of Senghor. Here, Iomedae found triumph without ever drawing her blade, achieving victory through the clever use of wordplay and diplomacy alone.
The last of these initial acts performed before the Shining Crusade was the defeat of Segruchen the Iron Gargoyle, who had proclaimed himself the King of the Barrowood. Iomedae’s griffon-mounted battle saw the so-called King metaphorically dethroned in mid-air.

Frankly, unless the Knights of Ozem were way massive and storied and had a really mired-down promotion system, then of course she would get promoted quickly!

Indeed—although this is admittedly discussing what it was like when Iomedae had already been a god for a while, and the nation of Lastwall was around, I feel like it could have reasonably originated in some shape or form centuries before—the Knights of Ozem had a “complicated structure [which was believed to allow the system to] easily elevate lower-ranking people to fill vacancies left by deaths in the field, even across organizations. The best talent, the Knights or Ozem believed, would rise to the…top positions” (Knights of Lastwall, 102)
This Testament as a whole also focuses on the importance of recognizing and learning from the flaws and failures of gods and mortals, so it seems fitting that Iomedae would have made a few mistakes (and more-than-mistakes)!

EDIT: fixed a typo


Re: the importance of learning from one’s mistakes, it’s interesting to note that Iomedae’s paladin code (as taken from Archives of Nethys), reads, in part:
I will not be taken prisoner by my free will. I will not surrender those under my command.
I will never abandon a companion, though I will honor sacrifice freely given.

“Freely given” is, I think, important here.


I do like the idea that those edicts come from Iomedae's direct regrets over the part she played in Arazni's death.

I don't know for sure if it'll happen, but I've shifted from thinking it could be interesting for Arazni to kill Iomedae, to thinking that if Iomedae is the one to die (which might be likely) that her death should come from sacrificing herself to save Arazni. Ascension to the higher ranks of godhood often seems like it comes from elevating yourself from your inherent nature, such as with Nocticula breaking free of her demonhood or Irori becoming something more than human. That act of ultimate sacrifice from the one who kicked off all her pain could be the spark for Arazni's ascendance.


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I really hope Iomedae doesn’t die. It would be so cool to see how their relationship evolves once Arazni becomes a proper god (especially given she seems to be going to become un-undead, given the cover of Divine Mysteries).

Hopefully what their relationship will evolve into will involve kissing.

Envoy's Alliance

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Okay I don't have facts to debate that I DON'T like the idea of Iomedae being directly involved in Arazni's betrayal... but I can see another way.

The mortal woman who would one day become the Inheritor set her helm on the table. They were roughly a mile from the front. Even from this distances she could smell the rot of flesh. "We need a miracle," she sighed, offering a quick prayer to Arazni and Aroden.

"I've been thinking about that," Tyreseus replied. He was a rare oddity, a Liberator of Nethys. She nodded at him to continue. "I was thinking, Shouldn't the right-hand of the Aroden be here, after all, he himself fought the Whispering Tyrant during his first rise"

"If my lady chooses not to appear, I must believe it is because she still has faith in us," Iomedae replied. "What about your mercurial master?" she replied.

"oh, we don't want Lord Nethys here," he chuckled. "More likely to side with Tar-Baphon, magical knowledge and all that."

Iomedae rolled her eyes. She knew that, she'd made the statement ironically. "So, until one of them chooses to appear, we must soldier on ourselves."

"But, what if we didn't need to wait?" Tyreseus offered. "What if we could invoke her and compel her appearance."

"You would not only question the will of a Goddess, but then try to bind her?" she snarled. His proposal had only lead to a darker and darker expression. However, the soldiers around her, some followers of Arazni, but most followers of Aroden, murmured to each other.

Iomedae drew her blade. "I would no more compel the service of a goddess than I would conscript a soldier," she snapped. "this discussion is over."

But it wasn't. the discussion happened behind closed doors, in hushed tones. The Priests of Nethys worked made the summoning and binding.

Iomedae would was across the field trying to return a detachment of wounded soldiers to their base camp (not one of her great acts) when the Summoning and Binding of the Goddess was done. She felt it, felt part of her heart yanked roughly toward the location where this new push was happening. Miles away... the bastards had planned for this. She ran. She ran with ever ounce of strength and will her muscles could offer. but before she could reach the battle, she felt that yanked part of her heart break...


A bit of a necro to this thread, but here’s a quote from Arazni’s section in Divine Mysteries more or less confirming that Iomedae when a mortal was at fault for Arazni’s death, “Iomedae feels responsible not only for redressing Aroden’s mistakes
but also for Arazni’s treatment by the Knights of Ozem”

Liberty's Edge

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Simeon wrote:

A bit of a necro to this thread, but here’s a quote from Arazni’s section in Divine Mysteries more or less confirming that Iomedae when a mortal was at fault for Arazni’s death, “Iomedae feels responsible not only for redressing Aroden’s mistakes

but also for Arazni’s treatment by the Knights of Ozem”

Does not mean she was actually at fault there any more than she was at fault in Aroden's mistakes, most of which predated her birth.

More like an all-encompassing sense of both duty and compassion.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Correct, she may not have approved of what happened, but was potentially responsible for those who did it. With command structures, one can still feel responsible for what happened, even if it wasn't your command that made it happen. In fact what happened could have even been contrary to explicit instructions, and one could still fault oneself for what happened.

Maybe she didn't make it clear enough that it would not be acceptable, and they took it as tacit approval, or maybe she did make abundantly clear, but others were losing trust in her leadership and leaned towards the suggestions of another. Even in such a case, she could hold herself responsible for having lost the faith of those in her command, that they chose the wrong path to proceed.

I agree that Arazni seems like she would have NO use for pleasantries with Iomedae if she felt it was Iomedae's true responsibility. The potential of her being the patron of the Knights by way of powering the Crimson Reclaimers seems to confirm this. It kind of leads to a belief that she might not believe it is the fault of the actual order, but perhaps the actions of some of its individual members. She perhaps doesn't personally feel betrayed by the order (although she might hide this for whatever personal reason) but rather considers it personal betrayal by those directly involved in the binding, which may not have been everyone.

An alternate scenario might be that the binding was done by order of Aroden... at which point Arazni might not have considered the Knights at fault, rather finding Aroden at fault. It would be strange, why wouldn't Aroden just tell his Herald to appear. Maybe the Whispering Tyrant tricked Aroden into making a prophecy that if his herald was bound, she would be victorious, but that very binding would be the source of her loss of faith causing her to be able to fail. And it would be the beginning of Aroden's prophesies that would come to fail, until is final death himself. That would be yet another potential option.

Either way, it may not have been Iomedae's choice, but it may not relieve her from feeling responsible, and it being responsible for forming some of her core beliefs. Not only that, but both of the above might actually be true. Aroden may have overridden Iomedae's choice, and for that Arazni may fold Aroden responsible. In public she may even hold the Knights responsible for her death, but personally, she may recognize Iomedae as having been the leader of the Knights and may know her choice, had it been followed would have respected her, and so in secret she may feel kinship for those who still hold to the original intent of the Knights, even if she doesn't wish to publicly assert this, as it might be difficult to explain to so many mortals, whom would see it as forgiveness, rather than respect for a leader for whom was overridden.

All these are possible scenarios that might make sense.

There is a certain interesting aspect to the idea of a God making a decision that was wrong, and overriding a mortal, who eventually takes the mantle of that god later on after he dies due to his error that may have been in part tied to this decision. But implications are that Aroden had plenty of 'non-good' mistakes attributed to him, which seems like it would make his association with 'good' to have been a mortal mistake in the past, potentially due to so many of the worshipers being human, and only chose to view him from their own ethnic perspective when they labeled him good. (which is no longer a universal element in remaster)


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It should be noted, it doesn't seem Arazni holds Iomedae responsible for her binding and death. If she did, it absolutely would've been mentioned by now and she probably would consider Iomedae a flat out enemy and hate her guts forever.

Envoy's Alliance

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It is my HC that every convent, and Barracks devoted to the Inheritor has one adherent who's task it is to maintain a local nearby shrine to the Unyielding. Even in her divinity, Iomedae mourns the loss of her Goddess, the suffering she went through, and wishes a pleasant place for her to return to, should she ever choose to return to such places.

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