Can a summon spell like summon animal summon the animal in mid-air and have it fall on someone?
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Before even getting into searching for "must be in a supported location" rules for summoning, you do realize that would be remarkably ineffective, when the rules for falling on a creature are as follows?
"If you land on a creature, that creature must attempt a DC 15 Reflex save. Intentionally aiming yourself to land on a creature after a long fall is almost impossible.
Critical Success The creature takes no damage.
Success The creature takes bludgeoning damage equal to one-quarter the falling damage you took.
Failure The creature takes bludgeoning damage equal to half the falling damage you took.
Critical Failure The creature takes the same amount of bludgeoning damage you took from the fall."
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On one hand, I don't see anything preventing it.
On the other hand, with a general idea of how this would play out, it is so obviously sub-optimal that I don't expect that anyone would ever want to do it.
So the fact that there is someone who does want to do it immediately sets off my shenanigans sensor.
What, specifically, are you hoping to accomplish?
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In PF1, we had the following caveat : "A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear f loating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it."
To prevent shenanigans that weaponized Summon spells beyond the abilities of the summoned creature.
In PF1, we had the following caveat : "A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear f loating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it."
To prevent shenanigans that weaponized Summon spells beyond the abilities of the summoned creature.
That runs into some issues: for instance, that caveat means you can never summon something like a Hungry Ghost [Summon Undead level 6] as no surface supports it and it's always floating in a space.
Or summoning a flying creature to use as a mount while falling a very long distance such as being pushed out of an airship.
But it is hard to create rules that cover every edge case.
A better attempt would be that if you couldn't get the creature there through Forced Movement, then you can't summon the creature in that location either.
Air is a surface capable of supporting a flying creature.
"If you're airborne at the end of your turn and didn't use a Fly action this round, you fall." It's a conditional support and I've seen debate on it being a surface. If it's allowed, then all the character had to do is command the summons to NOT take a fly action and it'll fall like the OP asked.
And Incorporeal creatures can completely stand on a floor.
As it doesn't have a physical form, it's is impossible for it to stand on anything that isn't ghost touched: they can stand on the floor as much as a character could stand on a ghost. It's the reason they have fly speeds only, since they can't stand/walk.
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Air is a surface capable of supporting a flying creature."If you're airborne at the end of your turn and didn't use a Fly action this round, you fall." It's a conditional support and I've seen debate on it being a surface. If it's allowed, then all the character had to do is command the summons to NOT take a fly action and it'll fall like the OP asked.
You are mistaken if you think you have that degree of control over your summons. The summoned creature is not a robot but interprets your commands:
the summoned creature uses the standard abilities for a creature of its kind. It generally attacks your enemies to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with it, you can attempt to command it, but the GM determines the degree to which it follows your commands
I don't force flying minions to fall unless they cannot fly I assume they are doing some flying all on their own.
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I've rarely seen anyone use summoned creatures. But the few times that I have seen it, I have never seen the GM not give control of the summoned creature to the player. Whether the narrative is that the spellcasting character is able to communicate and give specific commands or not is somewhat irrelevant. The player still ends up with decision making control over the summoned creature.
Yes, that may technically be a houserule. But it is one that I have never seen not used.
Summons are bad enough already. They don't need further nerfed.
I have never seen the GM not give control of the summoned creature to the player. Whether the narrative is that the spellcasting character is able to communicate and give specific commands or not is somewhat irrelevant. The player still ends up with decision making control over the summoned creature.
That is fine and I agree. But the point I step in as a GM is when you try to stuff like this.
Summons are bad enough already. They don't need further nerfed.
Yes I think they could do with an upgrade. But I don't see this as a reasonable fix, just torturing the game.
You are mistaken if you think you have that degree of control over your summons.
I was thinking of your mindless creatures like a Zombie Dragon, where you pretty much HAVE to command them as they need programmed or direct commands. That and like Finoan, I have yet to see a DM not have the player command summons.
For instance, just summon a Zombie Dragon in the air, then command it to use its Breath Weapon: as it's a 2 action activity, it'd fall after doing so and if you couldn't tell it to breathe then, you couldn't do so anyplace.
You are mistaken if you think you have that degree of control over your summons.I was thinking of your mindless creatures like a Zombie Dragon, where you pretty much HAVE to command them as they need programmed or direct commands. That and like Finoan, I have yet to see a DM not have the player command summons.
I have yet to see a player try such falling shenanigans
For instance, just summon a Zombie Dragon in the air, then command it to use its Breath Weapon: as it's a 2 action activity, it'd fall after doing so and if you couldn't tell it to breathe then, you couldn't do so anyplace.
I personally allow flying minions to flap for free. Otherwise it hoses all the flying animal companions and summons etc. AFAICT minions have lost an action anyway by having a master - I think that is system granularity getting in the way of what we want. As a GM I'm always going to step in when a strict reading of a rules neuters a significant section of the game. That is what we are supposed to do.
Even mindless minions still do automatic basic functions by themselves.
I have yet to see a player try such falling shenanigans
I haven't seen it, but i think because it seems super suboptimal rather than a shenanigan. Last time I've see it, I was playing AD&D.
I personally allow flying minions to flap for free. Otherwise it hoses all the flying animal companions and summons etc. AFAICT minions have lost an action anyway by having a master - I think that is system granularity getting in the way of what we want. As a GM I'm always going to step in when a strict reading of a rules neuters a significant section of the game. That is what we are supposed to do.
Even mindless minions still do automatic basic functions by themselves.
Yeah, the whole having to take an action to fly is problematic, so I'd be all for a free action hover.
For mindless minions, they can be directly controlled: there is a mention of mindless minions and possible misunderstood orders. i don't see how any of that would disallow commands that would end with one of them falling and would be simple enough for a minimal chance of misunderstanding.
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Air is a surface capable of supporting a flying creature."If you're airborne at the end of your turn and didn't use a Fly action this round, you fall." It's a conditional support and I've seen debate on it being a surface. If it's allowed, then all the character had to do is command the summons to NOT take a fly action and it'll fall like the OP asked.
And Incorporeal creatures can completely stand on a floor.As it doesn't have a physical form, it's is impossible for it to stand on anything that isn't ghost touched: they can stand on the floor as much as a character could stand on a ghost. It's the reason they have fly speeds only, since they can't stand/walk.
So ghosts need to use 1 action each round not to sink through the floor ?
There have already been rules debates about this. The general view is that Incorporeal creatures CAN sink through a floor if they choose to. Not that they have to unless they fly.
EDIT : Good point about the Fly speed only. So, maybe they sink through the floor unless using an action to fly.
So ghosts need to use 1 action each round not to sink through the floor ?
Technically yes: myself, I'd say no because they aren't affected by gravity [natural state is floating] but that'd be a houserule. It's one of those rules that gets handwaved most times [or just plain forgotten about]: I don't think anyone plays it so that a ghost mage falls for 10 min while they cast nondetection/Veil of Privacy.
So ghosts need to use 1 action each round not to sink through the floor ?Technically yes: myself, I'd say no because they aren't affected by gravity [natural state is floating] but that'd be a houserule. It's one of those rules that gets handwaved most times [or just plain forgotten about]: I don't think anyone plays it so that a ghost mage falls for 10 min while they cast nondetection/Veil of Privacy.
I think the default is to not sink through floors, but to spend actions flying when aloft. Otherwise Paizo would have had to mention how incorporeal creatures are at risk of falling to the center of Golarion, like say if Stunned. And yeah, like with casting longer spells, it leads to some major narrative hiccups.
I agree it's rough for a Minion lose even more actions to fly, but given they're sub-characters, I feel free-action hovers are unwarranted. Not that it'd break balance, but rather it's not broken (enough) to need fixing.
I think the default is to not sink through floors, but to spend actions flying when aloft.
It might be the default RAI, but I don't recall any mention of it in the books. It'd be one of those things that's be nice to see a mention of the fantasy reasoning for it. For instance, if ghosts don't fall through solid objects, would that include things like spiderwebs and other things that wouldn't support other creatures? Does standing part way in a wall/pillar/ect count? There seems to be a lot of situations where the distinction between surface and flying aloft would blur.
I agree it's rough for a Minion lose even more actions to fly, but given they're sub-characters, I feel free-action hovers are unwarranted.
I normally see this allowed across the board for all flying creatures if it's enacted. I personally like it working that as like as the flying creature can act, it can stay aloft: It just makes flying work like ground combat, and that just makes things easier IMO.
I think the default is to not sink through floors, but to spend actions flying when aloft.It might be the default RAI, but I don't recall any mention of it in the books. It'd be one of those things that's be nice to see a mention of the fantasy reasoning for it. For instance, if ghosts don't fall through solid objects, would that include things like spiderwebs and other things that wouldn't support other creatures? Does standing part way in a wall/pillar/ect count? There seems to be a lot of situations where the distinction between surface and flying aloft would blur.
I agree it's rough for a Minion lose even more actions to fly, but given they're sub-characters, I feel free-action hovers are unwarranted.I normally see this allowed across the board for all flying creatures if it's enacted. I personally like it working that as like as the flying creature can act, it can stay aloft: It just makes flying work like ground combat, and that just makes things easier IMO.
There's also no mention of them falling, something which would have to be mentioned. "Not falling" when "on" the floor (whatever that means to an incorporeal creature) seems like the kind of thing Paizo wouldn't think to mention simply because that's how typical creatures work.
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In an air-based campaign, I would consider extending the benefit to all flyers, but given Paizo's decades of experience I think the 1-action cost for getting a 3D advantage was intentional. (For normal flyers that is, the "lose half your actions" for minions is likely collateral damage.) It seems most creatures built to fight while flying have action routines that account for that. Those with poorer ability to fight while flying might be intentional to represent clumsiness, i.e. Zombie Dragons.
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The Ghost archetype does not exactly say that the ground supports the PC.
So, a Ghost PC might have to spend an action each round just to float.
TBTBT. That is like a permanent slow.
There's also no mention of them falling, something which would have to be mentioned.
There is no need for one as they can only fly and fly requires:
'If you're airborne at the end of your turn and didn't use a Fly action this round, you fall."
Also, nothing implies the ground means anything to incorporeal creatures so they'd always be airborne:
"An incorporeal creature or object has no physical form. It can pass through solid objects, including walls."
Nothing mentions falling immunity or the existence of a floor/surface for them. I don't assume something falling into or standing on water stops at its surface instead of moving through its surface: why would the ground be different for the incorporeal creatures for solid surfaces?
"Not falling" when "on" the floor (whatever that means to an incorporeal creature) seems like the kind of thing Paizo wouldn't think to mention simply because that's how typical creatures work.
That's fine at the start but they involve player mechanics directly: there are Familiars and Minions directly under the players command that are incorporeal AND they made a book of the dead where PC's can be incorporeal... When they make an option that allows me to be a ghost, I can't buy 'they didn't think about how incorporeal moves' seriously.
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Oh look. Once again we don't have rules explicitly saying one way. And we don't have rules explicitly saying the other way.
So maybe we can just agree that there is going to be table variation and that neither side of the debate can disprove the other side - that trying to do so runs smack into Argument from Ignorance.
When they make an option that allows me to be a ghost, I can't buy 'they didn't think about how incorporeal moves' seriously.
I disagree. Because the incorporeal rules are broken. We have proof that they didn't think adequately or correctly about incorporeal. Paizo clearly have stuffed up.
Oh look. Once again we don't have rules explicitly saying one way. And we don't have rules explicitly saying the other way.
But we DO have an explicit rule: you must take a fly action every round or fall and incorporeal gives no exceptions.
So maybe we can just agree that there is going to be table variation
I think we can agree the actual rules aren't living up to the RAI and that itself causes table variations.
"It CAN pass" Not "it passes"
it's up to the incorporeal if it wants to phase through a wall, or a floor.
That isn't a persuasive argument with how the sentance is written: it isn't phrases in a way that 'must' pass wouldn't work as it's only talking about voluntary movement. Would another incorporeal be unable to push or drag one through a wall or do you think they can decide an object is solid to them and they can interact with it? I mean saying 'you can walk through the door' doesn't prevent someone from pushing you through the door.
I disagree. Because the incorporeal rules are broken. We have proof that they didn't think adequately or correctly about incorporeal. Paizo clearly have stuffed up.
I don't think we really disagree: I can't imagine that incorporeal didn't come up in the book but I agree that it was a missed opportunity to make it work in a satisfying way.
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When they make an option that allows me to be a ghost, I can't buy 'they didn't think about how incorporeal moves' seriously.
You should always take "Paizo didn't think about how X works" seriously, no matter what it is or how much they've written on or adjacent to X in the past.