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Ive wanted to see Two-Weapon Fighting be more viable, not only less feat-tax-heavy but also more appealing.
With the numerous feat tax on Two-weapon-fighting I went on to replace the weakest feat in the chain with a quality feat which would stabilize the penalties on attack rolls whilst also opening up the path to the appealing Double 1-handed wielding option found in various Anime.
What do you think about this?
I replaced this feat
Double Slice (Combat)
Your off-hand weapon while dual-wielding strikes with greater power.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: Add your Strength bonus to damage rolls made with your off-hand weapon.
Normal: You normally add only half of your Strength modifier to damage rolls made with a weapon wielded in your off-hand.
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Remains
Two-Weapon Fighting
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light.
TWF
New Feat:
Ambidextrous
You are able to use the right and left hands equally well. Your ability to Dual wield weapons is improved.
Prerequisite: BAB+1, Two-Weapon Fighting & Dex15
Benefit:
Your off hand attacks deal damage using your full Strength Bonus.
In addition, when two-weapon fighting using two light/finesse weapons reduces the attack penalties by 1.
Finally, if the character has 15+ Str and is using a 1-hand weapon in her off-hand, the penalties are reduced 1 each.
Resulting Attack penalties: TWF+Ambidextrous =
-1 Attack penalty with dual light/finesse weapons,
-2 Attack penalty with two 1-handed finesse weapons (Req Str15) &
-3 Attack penalty with two 1-handed weapons (Req Str15).
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Any input on this, is it too strong or does it make TWF more viable?
Thanks for your input
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An idea I had a while back for a revision/simplification of two weapon/two hand combat:
First off, we establish a set of multipliers based on the classic Strength bonus rules:
Two-Handed: Bonus * 1.5
One-Handed: Bonus * 1.0
Off-Handed: Bonus * 0.5
My basic idea:
Remove all two-weapon attack penalties (or at least the 'two light weapons' penalty) and feat requirements.
If dual-wielding, any time you get an attack with your 'main' weapon attack, you can attack with the 'offhand' as well (including the standard 'attack' action, iterative attacks as part of the Full Attack action, and Attacks of Opportunity).
ALL weapon damage beyond the base weapon die/dice has the new damage modifier applied to it: This include strength/dexterity bonuses enhancement bonuses, specialization bonuses, Sneak Attack damage, extra dice from weapon enchantments, power attack, etc...
I suspect this would bring enough balance to remove the need for feat trees and penalties: A character should do the same average damage with a Greatsword as they would with a pair of Shortswords.
Example: An 18 Strength Fighter with the appropriate Weapon Specialization feat could chose between:
1 Greatsword attack doing 2d6 + (4 * 1.5) + (2 * 1.5) = 2d6+9, or
2 Shortsword attacks doing 1d6 + 4 + 2 and 1d6 + 2 + 1 = 2d6+9
Immediate areas of concern:
Cost of enchanting two weapons is a disadvantage.
DR might be an issue, so perhaps combining Mainhand and Offhand damage before applying it will be necessary (2H weapon would still be better here since you only need to 'hit' once).
I'm currently thinking the Offhand attack is a separate attack roll, but you could use one roll for both attacks, though that might make dual-wielding into 'two-handed attack, but with extra enchantment costs...'
Will Rogues need a boost to full BAB to offset the nerf to their offhand damage?
Will the additional math annoy people (bonus damage dice in particular)?
I just went back and dug out my 3e Player's Handbook and used the Ambidexterity feat there.
Ambidexterity [General]
Prerequisite: Dex 15+.
Benefit: The character ignores all penalties for using an off hand. The character is neither left-handed nor right-handed.
Normal: Without this feat, a character who uses his or her off hand suffers a -4 penalty to attack rolls, ability checks, and skill checks. For example, a right-handed character wielding a weapon with her left hand suffers a -4 penalty to attack rolls with that weapon.
Special: This feat helps offset the penalty for fighting with two weapons."
I just went back and dug out my 3e Player's Handbook and used the Ambidexterity feat there.
Ambidexterity [General]
Prerequisite: Dex 15+.
Benefit: The character ignores all penalties for using an off hand. The character is neither left-handed nor right-handed.
Normal: Without this feat, a character who uses his or her off hand suffers a -4 penalty to attack rolls, ability checks, and skill checks. For example, a right-handed character wielding a weapon with her left hand suffers a -4 penalty to attack rolls with that weapon.
Special: This feat helps offset the penalty for fighting with two weapons."
It's not a perfect fit, but my GM said he was fine with it.
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It's not a perfect fit, but my GM said he was fine with it.I just went back and dug out my 3e Player's Handbook and used the Ambidexterity feat there.
Ambidexterity [General]
Prerequisite: Dex 15+.
Benefit: The character ignores all penalties for using an off hand. The character is neither left-handed nor right-handed.
Normal: Without this feat, a character who uses his or her off hand suffers a -4 penalty to attack rolls, ability checks, and skill checks. For example, a right-handed character wielding a weapon with her left hand suffers a -4 penalty to attack rolls with that weapon.
Special: This feat helps offset the penalty for fighting with two weapons."
D&D3.0's Ambidexterity feat was rolled into the base rules and the Two-Weapon Fighting feat in D&D3.5 and PF1: It was literally just a nasty feat tax that strongly encouraged rogues to dip into ranger for one level...
Baseline Two-Weapon fighting penalty in all three editions is -6 (Main Hand) / -10 (Offhand)*
D&D3.0 Ambidexterity: Eliminates your offhand penalty, reducing your penalties to -6/-6*
D&D3.0 Two-Weapon Fighting: Reduces your two-weapon penalties by 2, reducing your baseline penalties to -4/-8*
D&D3.0 Ambidexterity + D&D3.0 Two-Weapon Fighting: Reduces your baseline penalties to -4/-4*
The entire concept of a penalty for using your 'offhand' by itself (when not dual-wielding) was dropped in 3.5 as an unnecessary complication...
PF1 Two-Weapon Fighting: 'The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6', reducing your baseline penalties to -4/-4*
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It's not a perfect fit, but my GM said he was fine with it.I just went back and dug out my 3e Player's Handbook and used the Ambidexterity feat there.
Ambidexterity [General]
Prerequisite: Dex 15+.
Benefit: The character ignores all penalties for using an off hand. The character is neither left-handed nor right-handed.
Normal: Without this feat, a character who uses his or her off hand suffers a -4 penalty to attack rolls, ability checks, and skill checks. For example, a right-handed character wielding a weapon with her left hand suffers a -4 penalty to attack rolls with that weapon.
Special: This feat helps offset the penalty for fighting with two weapons."
I probably shouldnt be surprised to discover this old feat being so similar to what I crafted, its definitely stronger, though doesnt consider the difference between light & 1-handed weapon in the off-hand.
There are a couple of classes that really benefit from Dual Wielding, such as
Rogues (Sneak attack)
Rangers (Fav Enemy)
Fighters (Weapon Spec & Crit Feats)
Paladins (Smite Evil)
I read you've reduced the Attack penalties and attack options significantly!
Though I believe having some penalty to Attack roll is the path to take when Two-Weapon Fighting with 1-handed weapons.
I can see the value in being able to TWF on standard actions and on AoOs, but I think it would be too strong without one or two BAB+6 Feats, eitherway consuming an additional AoO.
Hearing you out I think I'll make the Feat a little stronger, depending on the GM they could pick between my first posting of Ambidextrous or this one, v2.0
New Feat:
Ambidextrous 1.1
You are able to use the right and left hands equally well. Your ability to Dual wield weapons is improved.
Prerequisite: BAB+1, Two-Weapon Fighting & Dex15
Benefit:
Your off hand attacks deal damage using your full Strength Bonus.
Furthermore, reduces Attack penalties when Two-Weapon Fighting by 1.
In addition, when two-weapon fighting using two light/finesse weapons reduces the attack penalties by 1.
Finally, if the character has 15+ Str and is using a 1-hand weapon in her off-hand, the penalties are reduced 1 each.
Resulting...
-0 Attack Penalty with Light/finesse weapons
-1 Attack Penalty with two finesse 1-handed weapons (Req Str15)
-2 Attack Penalty with two 1-handed weapons (Req Str15)
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Potential Class update:
The Feat Ambidextrous is added to the Rangers Combat Style 'Two-Weapon Combat' Feat list, replacing Double Slice.
So, a Dex based TWF rogue is very powerful in this game. So it a TWF fighter. there's really no need to make it more powerful. Double Slice is pretty much an ignored feat, since a DEX based martial should pretty much use STR as a low stat (10) or a dump stat (8). You can already get the TWF penalties to zero fairly easily (Effortless lace, etc), and the rogue can get Dex to damage, add in the Piranha Strike feat, and suddenly they are dealing TONS of damage each round. There's no need to make this even more powerful.
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Im a little confused what each row is meant to discern but I think you mean each full-round-attack option.
In 03, you're using the old Monk inplace of the fixed Unchained Monk.
From T1) TWF & 15Dex; you've included Double Slice (full Str to off-hand)
A1 til A4 explains my two versions with Ambidextrous /1.1
I guess X2 & Z2 is with multiarmed races.
Im a little worried how Multi attack would interact with Ambidextrous, so I'd say;
Ambidextrous only applies to weapons, not natural weapons.
I believe Rogues can be rather unpredictable, sometimes they excell, with the aid of the party, and other times she deals little damage.
Your commitment made me interested in taking a second look at Ambidextrous.
I like how the Strength stat requirement nerfs 1-handed builds, but I believe my first version of Ambidextrous is enough change to prevent OP builds whilst also becoming a non-ignored-feat, in other words, dont use Ambidextrous 1.1.
Furthermore, I'd change the wording to enable full Dex to Damage with off-hand attacks;
Your off hand attacks deal damage using your full Strength/Ability Bonus to Damage with, instead of half.
For a Rogue, picking this feat, would grant a little bit of off-hand fixed extra damage to depend on whether or not Sneak attack works, and gains 1 penalty less on full-round-attacks, as opposed to weapon focus which grants +1 to all attacks with a weapon, standard, Charge etc.
I believe Rogues can be rather unpredictable, sometimes they excell, with the aid of the party, and other times she deals little damage.
Furthermore, I'd change the wording to enable full Dex to Damage with off-hand attacks;
Your off hand attacks deal damage using your full Strength/Ability Bonus to Damage with, instead of half.For a Rogue, picking this feat, would grant a little bit of off-hand fixed extra damage to depend on whether or not Sneak attack works, and gains 1 penalty less on full-round-attacks, as opposed to weapon focus which grants +1 to all attacks with a weapon, standard, Charge etc.
I guess I've had better luck with rogues then, as they get sneak attack 75%+ of the time, including full round attack quite often.
with finesse weapons, and the ability to get DEX to damage on all attacks, and when you include Piranha strike, all they need is a haste item and a way to be invisible (which is super easy BTW), and suddenly they are making 5-6 attacks per round, most of which will hit, that do +/- 1d6 + 8 + 5d6 (or d8) damage each. with all that, they have little need for a damage boost from STR, they would much prefer to up their DEX, as a +2 DEX will give +1AC, +1 Damage (to both hands), +1 to HIT, and +1 INIT. Whereas all a +2 STR would give is a +1 Damage.
AS for Ambidextrous being a feat - It's not viable IMO, as I can probably find something better to spend a feat slot on.
My GM hates rogues due to the damage they can deal and is always asking me to nerf my builds.
Hearing you out I think I'll make the Feat a little stronger, depending on the GM they could pick between my first posting of Ambidextrous or this one, v2.0New Feat:
Ambidextrous 1.1You are able to use the right and left hands equally well. Your ability to Dual wield weapons is improved.
Prerequisite: BAB+1, Two-Weapon Fighting & Dex15
Benefit:
Your off hand attacks deal damage using your full Strength Bonus.
Furthermore, reduces Attack penalties when Two-Weapon Fighting by 1....
Something to consider here is that you've combined an archetype's 11th level and 15th level class features and the Double Slice feat into a single feat that a human can get at 1st level.
Another thing to consider is that the Two-Weapon Fighting and Double Slice feats imply a significant degree of ambidexterity to begin with: they quite literally make it as easy to attack and damage with your off-hand as you would with your main hand. They remove the balance between your two hands only when the off-hand has a negligible weight. Where that point is concerned, the fact that you can switch primary and secondary hands at will indicates that "off-hand" isn't simply about being dominant with one hand; just that it's easier to fight with one weapons being significantly lighter than the other (or when both are significantly light).
An alternative might be to take a page out of the "Princess Bride" duel between Inigo Montoya and Wesley, and have ambidexterity manifest as a bonus you get by switching hands when fighting one-handed against another one-handed opponent ("I'm really not left-handed!") or by switching your primary and secondary weapons (perhaps as part of a successful Bluff check). In either case, it would be about throwing your opponent off-balance rather than adding to the ambidexterity your character already demonstrates.
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Something to consider here is that you've combined an archetype's 11th level and 15th level class features and the Double Slice feat into a single feat that a human can get at 1st level.
Hearing you out I think I'll make the Feat a little stronger, depending on the GM they could pick between my first posting of Ambidextrous or this one, v2.0New Feat:
Ambidextrous 1.1You are able to use the right and left hands equally well. Your ability to Dual wield weapons is improved.
Prerequisite: BAB+1, Two-Weapon Fighting & Dex15
Benefit:
Your off hand attacks deal damage using your full Strength Bonus.
Furthermore, reduces Attack penalties when Two-Weapon Fighting by 1....
I agree, the Ambidextrous 1.1 took away all the penalties regarding light weapon off-hand TWF, which was too much, and the two 1-handed options had their penalties lowered too far.
The Archetype you mentioned allows one to treat a 1-handed weapon in the off-hand as if it was a light weapon
(Attacks at: -2 & -2) & otherwise lowers the penalties once each to (to -0 & -0) for a Real light off-hand, whilst Ambidextrous doesnt change the weapon-type and lowers it once
(-3 & -3), and for light off-hand (-1 & -1).
- Ive found that when one changes what something counts as (1-handed counts as light) -you need an archetype to specify it, Ambidextrous adds to rather than changing the off-hand weapon.
Regarding Humans, its an investment they do with their standard and bonus feat into TWF, so some value ought to come of it.
You make a point that Ambidextrous could be picked at lvl 1, however, just like Monks' Flurrying is a lvl1 ability and so is a Magus' Spellcombat.
Furthermore, the +1BAB requirement, denies Rogues the quick access to Ambidextrous.
Another thing to consider is that the Two-Weapon Fighting and Double Slice feats imply a significant degree of ambidexterity to begin with: they quite literally make it as easy to attack and damage with your off-hand as you would with your main hand. They remove the balance between your two hands only when the off-hand has a negligible weight. Where that point is concerned, the fact that you can switch primary and secondary hands at will indicates that "off-hand" isn't simply about being dominant with one hand; just that it's easier to fight with one weapons being significantly lighter than the other (or when both are significantly light).
An alternative might be to take a page out of the "Princess Bride" duel between Inigo Montoya and Wesley, and have ambidexterity manifest as a bonus you get by switching hands when fighting one-handed against another one-handed opponent ("I'm really not left-handed!") or by switching your primary and secondary weapons (perhaps as part of a successful Bluff check). In either case, it would be about throwing your opponent off-balance rather than adding to the ambidexterity your character already demonstrates.
You added some fun plays there.
The way I view TWF is an adeptness to using weapons together through skill/mastery, whilst Ambidextrous adds to your natural use of your body's ability to wield weapons in your off-hand specifically.
Being Ambidextrous doesnt come with TWF, as if it had, the off-hand would have had some bonus.
Regarding Humans, its an investment they do with their standard and bonus feat into TWF, so some value ought to come of it.
It's not a question of whether they should get something out of your feat. The issue is that your feat, even when amended, is basically Weapon Focus and Double Slice rolled into one.
You make a point that Ambidextrous could be picked at lvl 1, however, just like Monks' Flurrying is a lvl1 ability and so is a Magus' Spellcombat.
Well, yes, but those are class features, not feats.
Furthermore, the +1BAB requirement, denies Rogues the quick access to Ambidextrous.
Right, but--respectfully--I don't think this is a meaningful enough consideration for whether a feat should provide the benefits of two other feats.
Being Ambidextrous doesnt come with TWF, as if it had, the off-hand would have had some bonus.
Ambidexterity is the ability to use both of one's hands equally well, not the ability to use one's normally non-dominant hand better than their normally dominant one.
Ambidextrous v2
You are able to use your hands equally well.
Prerequisite: Dex≥13
Benefit:
choose one effect which applies until the start of your next round;
1) Your two-weapon fighting attack penalties are reduced by 1 to 0 at most.
2) When making multiple attacks using natural weapons (including Multiattack feat) the secondary attack penalties are reduced by 1 to 0 at most.
3) When using Improved Unarmed Strike attack penalties(if any) from flurry are reduced by 1 to 0 at most.When using a DEX based skill that takes longer than a standard action to complete or Sleight of Hand you gain a +1 competency bonus to your check. When using a Craft skill gain a +2 competency bonus when calculating your daily or weekly progress. If you have 10 or more ranks in a skill, the competency bonus from Ambidextrous doubles for that skill.
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So, this is way too powerful for a feat. the reduction of an attack penalty is enough of a benefit (although there's no need for this feat, considering how TWF works)
But the benefit to Dex based skills is too much of an additional benefit, and a benefit to a Craft skill is totally out of flavor (craft is int based, so why would a feat benefitting DEX give it a bonus), and the doubled benefit with 10 Ranks, is just over the top.
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Ambidextrous v2
You are able to use your hands equally well.
Prerequisite: Dex≥13
Benefit:
choose one effect which applies until the start of your next round;
1) Your two-weapon fighting attack penalties are reduced by 1 to 0 at most.
2) When making multiple attacks using natural weapons (including Multiattack feat) the secondary attack penalties are reduced by 1 to 0 at most.
3) When using Improved Unarmed Strike attack penalties(if any) from flurry are reduced by 1 to 0 at most.When using a DEX based skill that takes longer than a standard action to complete or Sleight of Hand you gain a +1 competency bonus to your check. When using a Craft skill gain a +2 competency bonus when calculating your daily or weekly progress. If you have 10 or more ranks in a skill, the competency bonus from Ambidextrous doubles for that skill.
At first, I made the Ambidextrous feat with the idea of replacing the discardable feat 'Double Slice' whilst climbing on the TWF feat tree.
I can see how tempting it is to have the feat add to secondary attacks for a Druid or alike who uses Multiattack.
However, I dont see the feat being applicable to secondary natural attacks, as Multiattack isnt using off-hands attack, but rather extra limbs.
On a game-balance level, pouncers would become further deadly which isnt needed.
However, if really interested in applying it to Multiattack, add it as a potential prerequite, alternate to TWF and add a 15 Dex prerequisite, as in par with TWF's Prerequisites.
Using Ambidextrous to apply a reduced attack penalty to the old Monk's Flurry of Blows seems thematic and in line of how TWF works, I approve.
Although Ambidextrous reduces Attack penalties by 1, it isnt as universally applicable as Weapon focus which raises attack by +1, which applies when Full-round-attack attacking, charging, on a standard action and on AoOs.
So I wouldnt say it combines two feats, it improves 1 feat and sticks with the TWF pattern of reducing attack penalties for Two-weapon-Fighting.
Getting into Full-round-attack range isnt always easy, there are Skirmishers, difficult terrain and obstacles which can delay the rounds until a TWF finally gets into range to attack.
Maybe increasing Ambidextrous BAB prerequisite to +4 would prevent early game exploitment, in addition to its Dex15 & TWF prerequisites.
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Regarding Humans, its an investment they do with their standard and bonus feat into TWF, so some value ought to come of it.It's not a question of whether they should get something out of your feat. The issue is that your feat, even when amended, is basically Weapon Focus and Double Slice rolled into one.
My initial intent was to make the subpar feat Double Slice more valuable, adding thematic value combined with TWF.
The universal use of Weapon focus is much broader than Ambidextrous, applying to both Two-Weapon-fighting, Standard Action, Charge & AoOs, whilst Ambidextrous only applies to TWF.You make a point that Ambidextrous could be picked at lvl 1, however, just like Monks' Flurrying is a lvl1 ability and so is a Magus' Spellcombat.
Well, yes, but those are class features, not feats.
Fair point, though I dont see Ambidextrous exclusively being tied to an archetype, its acquisition difficulty could be raised, to +4 or +6 BAB, in addition to Dex 15 & TWF prerequisites.
Being Ambidextrous doesnt come with TWF, as if it had, the off-hand would have had some bonus.Ambidexterity is the ability to use both of one's hands equally well, not the ability to use one's normally non-dominant hand better than their normally dominant one.
'Bonus' wasnt the right word to use.
But as when multiorganizing two hands simultaneously is difficult, easing one hand can lower the distraction for the main as well.
...and Point-blank shot.Altering "to hit" and damage in one feat can be tricky. See Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, and Power Attack.
or more applicable to TWF, Piranha Strike.
As mentioned above, Ambidextrous would mainly be attractive to TWF builds. For them sacrificing a feat slot for a +1 bonus is not a game changer, unless it's something like Weapon Focus, which opens other feat trees. Since they typically use STR as a dump/minimal stat, any kind of STR based feat is typically glossed over.
If I were to write an Ambidextrous feat it would probably be something like this
Ambidextrous:
Pre Req: DEX 16 (or more), Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: the Penalties with Two-Weapon fighting are reduced by 1.
when I play TWF characters, they have normally gotten most of the TWF feats they need around 10th-11th level, and normally switch to archery feats as they is a natural progression for DEX based characters. This would give me a final TWF feat to pick up, before going that route.
My initial intent was to make the subpar feat Double Slice more valuable, adding thematic value combined with TWF.
Double Slice is only subpar with a Dex-based TWF build. Given the Strength prerequisite you're proposing, it's only a matter of time before Double Slice at least matches Weapon Specialization in terms of the damage bonus provided. The way Pathfinder's magical items are prioritized, a martial character (or appropriately outfitted rogue) focusing on TWF will get at least a +4 damage bonus from Double Slice--and probably more than that.
The universal use of Weapon focus is much broader than Ambidextrous, applying to both Two-Weapon-fighting, Standard Action, Charge & AoOs, whilst Ambidextrous only applies to TWF.
Right, but the point is that you're effectively getting that bonus from your proposed feat. It's essentially a +1 bonus to attack, except it's not limited to one weapon (unless you dual-wield the same type of weapon). The same applies to the bonus you're getting from Double Slice, by the way.
Fair point, though I dont see Ambidextrous exclusively being tied to an archetype, its acquisition difficulty could be raised, to +4 or +6 BAB, in addition to Dex 15 & TWF prerequisites.
I don't follow your point re: Archetypes, but I agree that effectively giving it a level requirement equivalent to (or higher) than Weapon Specialization would make sense given the bonuses you want to provide.
But as when multiorganizing two hands simultaneously is difficult, easing one hand can lower the distraction for the main as well.
No disagreement there, but--at the risk of starting a circular argument--that directly applies to what I was saying about TWF and the way it lowers penalties so that both hands function equally well.
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Ambidexterity sounds like a minor trait. Like the things a PC can select while building a character. There's basically no feat chain unless they later want one of the feats for another reason.