Does DISCERN SECRETS work for ORGANSIGHT？

[LeoChep]

the spell said，
You see the target as though it's dissected and arrayed before you. For the duration, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus on Medicine checks against the target that depend on its organs, but a –2 circumstance penalty on Medicine checks depending on seeing its skin.

When you Cast the Spell, attempt a special Recall Knowledge check using Medicine to spot and discern a vital organ. If you have a Lore skill appropriate to the creature, you can use that skill instead of Medicine. If you succeed, the next time you deal piercing or slashing damage to the target with a Strike or spell, you deal 4d6 additional precision damage. Once on each of your subsequent turns, you can use a single action to attempt the special Recall Knowledge check again. The extra damage isn't cumulative, so making the check more than once before a Strike or spell has no extra benefit.

the spell asks we use a sigle action to attempt the recall knowledge check,and witch's DISCERN SECRETS let we can use a free action to recall knowledge,so can i use free action to attempt the special Recall Knowledge check?

[Blave]

Since it specifically calls out using a Recall Knowledge check, I would say yes, any effect that interacts with Recall Knowledge should apply.

[SuperBidi]

No, they don't interact. The RK check from Organsight is a specific RK check that asks for an action, you can't use another RK check like the one from Discern Secrets instead.

[Trip.H]

Ah, but can boosts to RK checks work for the special Organsight RK check?

Such as Pocket Library's +1 Status, which is not a Circumstance.

[Easl]

Both DS and Organsight are spells that tell the target to make a RK check. That check would happen when the cast completes. So I don't see how the initial Organsight and initial DS check could be the same roll. However DS also gives +1 "to the skill or Perception used for the roll" for up to a minute after, if sustained, so if a witch targets Medicine or the appropriate Lore skill, and then sustains it, that bonus may be available on subsequent checks.

Timing might therefore look like this:
Witch turn: casts DS with Medicine or the appropriate Lore skill specified. Per the spell, target makes a regular RK check at +1, learning regular RK stuff.
Witch/Other casters turn: caster casts Organsight at target. They now get their Organsight RK, with +1 for the witch's cast.
Targets turn: attacks for +4d6 precision damage.

3 support actions for +4d6 precision damage at level 5 seems okay in terms of balance. After all, the caster casting Organsight could've just used 2a to cast fireball for "+6d6" damage instead of "+4d6", and that would not have used the witch hex, so this isn't generally OP. Though obviously if the target's damage type is much more effective than what the witch or other caster can muster, then this could have some conditional value.

[Errenor]

Easl wrote:

Witch turn: casts DS with Medicine or the appropriate Lore skill specified. Per the spell, target makes a regular RK check at +1, learning regular RK stuff.

Only I think it's not the witch, but the target chooses action and skill. It's not very clearly specified though.

[Old_Man_Robot]

SuperBidi wrote:

No, they don't interact. The RK check from Organsight is a specific RK check that asks for an action, you can't use another RK check like the one from Discern Secrets instead.

You can't use the RK check that is subordinate to the casting of Discern Secrets itself, in the place of the RK check called for in Organ Sight.

You can however, on subsequent actions, after sustaining Discern Secrets, apply the bonus it grants to the RK check called for in Organ Sight.

It's better parsed in the Remastered language, so its clear that the bonus to the chosen action is applied to future versions of the same action, not just the one granted by casting Discern Secrets.

[Old_Man_Robot]

Trip.H wrote:

Such as Pocket Library's +1 Status, which is not a Circumstance.

Pocket Library is an interesting one.

Pocket Library wrote:

During the duration of this spell, you can call forth a tome from the extradimensional library when attempting a Recall Knowledge check using your chosen skill. This is part of the action to Recall Knowledge. You must have a hand free to do so

.

It is unclear if this should be taken as "Part of the recall knowledge action, as defined on page 239 of the Player Core, etc etc etc" or if it becomes part of any action which invokes a Recall Knowledge check.

I feel like the design of Pocket Library means that it is intended to work with any action that invokes an RK check, but I can see an equal argument that since such abilties don't grant the action, it doesn't allow for the ability to be used.

A good case study for this is actually Discern Secrets in its Premaster vs Remaster state.

Premaster Discern Secrets grants the RK check as a subordinate part of casting the spell. An argument can be made that since this is not a RK action, Pocket Library couldn't be used.

Remaster Discern Secrets grants the RK as a free action instead of a subordinate one, so its much clearer that Pocket Library has an actual RK action to work on.

[Finoan]

LeoChep wrote:

the spell asks we use a sigle action to attempt the recall knowledge check,and witch's DISCERN SECRETS let we can use a free action to recall knowledge,so can i use free action to attempt the special Recall Knowledge check?

No, that is two different spell effects.

Organsight lets you use a Recall Knowledge check as part of its original casting, and then on later rounds you can use one action to repeat the spell effect.

Discern Secrets lets you make a Recall Knowledge check as a free action, but it is a general purpose Recall Knowledge check - not a Recall Knowledge check as part of the Organsight spell effect.

So there is no action economy benefit of combining the two spells.

The bonus to Recall Knowledge checks that Discern Secrets gives you would apply to the Recall Knowledge check that you make for Organsight though.