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Rules in question (CRB 217)
"Modifiers and AC
Your familiar’s save modifiers and AC are equal to yours before applying circumstance or status bonuses or penalties. Its Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth modifiers are equal to your level plus your spellcasting ability modifier (Charisma if you don’t have one, unless otherwise specified). If it attempts an attack roll or other skill check, it uses your level as its modifier. It doesn’t have or use its own ability modifiers and can never benefit from item bonuses."
Is there a reason that you skipped the most relevant sentence?
"... eption, Acrobatics, and Stealth modifiers are equal to your level plus your spellcasting ability modifier (Charisma if you don't have one, unless otherwise specified). It can't make Strikes, but it can use trained skill actions for skills for which it adds your spellcasting ability modifier. If it attempts an attack roll or other skill check, it uses your level ..."
I'm also not sure where you are seeing anything about having a -2 penalty. Is that in comparison to Pathfinder first edition?
Familiars (without the specific overrides mentioned above by Guntermench) are not allowed to use the Strike action - so no claw attacks or unarmed attacks at all. They simply can't use the action. Even after being targeted by something like Animal Form that would give them stats to make attacks with.
Also by default they don't have any spells or abilities that would target other creatures. Though that is easily added by various things. The most universal being the Spellcasting familiar ability that will give them one spell that could be a spell attack roll spell. At that point they could use that sentence in the rules about if for some reason they do need to make an attack roll or other skill check, then it uses your level as its modifier. Or level + your spellcasting ability (attribute) modifier. Unless the ability that gives them the attack says something else - which many do.
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Some examples.
At level 11 a Witch could give their familiar the Spellcasting ability and have them prepare Biting Words. When the familiar casts the spell they would follow the override rules in the Spellcasting ability and use the Witch's full spell attack modifier for the attacks made.
If an enemy grabs your familiar, the familiar can use the Escape action using your level + spellcasting ability modifier for its Acrobatics check.
If you want your familiar to trip an enemy, then it has to still meet the size requirement restrictions of being no more than one size category larger than the familiar (which is tiny size typically). And they would make the Athletics check using your level as the bonus. Unless you also gave them the Skilled (Athletics) ability for that day, then they would use your level + spellcasting ability modifier.
I actually didn't skip anything, copied it word for word from my Core Rulebook and double checked online (Nethys) as well. No such mention of no Strikes. Where did you find the additional sentence?
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My mistake, I didn't look at Nethys. So then why does Nethys contradict the actual text of the CRB? The actual book doesn't have that additional sentence.I actually didn't skip anything, copied it word for word from my Core Rulebook and double checked online (Nethys) as well. No such mention of no Strikes. Where did you find the additional sentence?Familiar: Modifiers and AC.
Most likely? Check your printing. The CRB is on its 4th printing and therefore 3rd round of errata. That line probably got added during errata to clarify the intent that familiars do not attack.
EDIT: Confirmed from the first Core Rulebook errata. This means you likely have a first printing book
Page 217: Familiars' level wasn't explicit. Add "A familiar has the same level you do." The description of familiars didn't define any Strikes but also wasn't explicit that they couldn't make them. Add "It can't make Strikes" to the beginning of the third sentence.
My mistake, I didn't look at Nethys. So then why does Nethys contradict the actual text of the CRB? The actual book doesn't have that additional sentence.I actually didn't skip anything, copied it word for word from my Core Rulebook and double checked online (Nethys) as well. No such mention of no Strikes. Where did you find the additional sentence?Familiar: Modifiers and AC.Most likely? Check your printing. The CRB is on its 4th printing and therefore 3rd round of errata. That line probably got added during errata to clarify the intent that familiars do not attack.
EDIT: Confirmed from the first Core Rulebook errata. This means you likely have a first printing book
Page 217: Familiars' level wasn't explicit. Add "A familiar has the same level you do." The description of familiars didn't define any Strikes but also wasn't explicit that they couldn't make them. Add "It can't make Strikes" to the beginning of the third sentence.THANK YOU. That's actually helpful. I'm gonna have to look again because I can't find the printing info in my book (it's the red alt cover, if that helps, and that info should be on the first page but no lol).
I'm still looking for clarification on what attacks they can roll for, though, as the "if it attempts an attack roll" line is still intact even on Nethys (which I assume is up to date with errata) . I see that there's a niche familiar that can make Strikes, but that only applies to that specific familiar. I'll see if I can find something in the errata unless someone beats me to it.
Escaping a grapple/ropes is an attack roll and the only real thing that came to mind when I wonder what situation might a familiar need to technically have an attack roll but no means of attacking.
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Escaping a grapple/ropes is an attack roll and the only real thing that came to mind when I wonder what situation might a familiar need to technically have an attack roll but no means of attacking.
Escape, trip, and grapple are technically not attack rolls. They are skill checks for an action that has the Attack trait. Having the Attack trait does not cause the roll to be an "Attack Roll". That was also changed in errata.
Spell attack is the most likely reason for a familiar to be making an attack roll. The spellcasting familiar ability has a specific rule, but there are likely spells that you could target your familiar with that would allow them to make spell attacks. Most spell attack roll spells are cast directly, and a few more, like Biting Words only target the caster. But I still expect that there is at least one spell available that you can use to target a different creature and give them a spell attack option.
Escaping a grapple/ropes is an attack roll and the only real thing that came to mind when I wonder what situation might a familiar need to technically have an attack roll but no means of attacking.Escape, trip, and grapple are technically not attack rolls. They are skill checks for an action that has the Attack trait. Having the Attack trait does not cause the roll to be an "Attack Roll". That was also changed in errata.
Spell attack is the most likely reason for a familiar to be making an attack roll. The spellcasting familiar ability has a specific rule, but there are likely spells that you could target your familiar with that would allow them to make spell attacks. Most spell attack roll spells are cast directly, and a few more, like Biting Words only target the caster. But I still expect that there is at least one spell available that you can use to target a different creature and give them a spell attack option.
Ah, right of course, Escape can be an attack roll, but it's also choice of two skills, too, one of which is probably better than the hypothetical strike the familiar doesn't have.
So has anyone tried to trip or grapple with a familiar - how has it gone....?
I guess the main problem is they are size Tiny.
I have not attempted to use that tactic.
If I were, I would likely combine that with casting Enlarge on the familiar first. Even with that, it is less benefit than having a character that is investing in grapple or trip. Level + spellcasting attribute modifier is going to be below optimal. But not so bad that it is unusable.
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The low HP doesn't help anything either.
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Though, to be fair and all things considered. Enlarge and grapple or trip is still probably a better tactic than casting a Rank 1 Biting Words at a level 11 enemy.
I have not attempted to use that tactic.
If I were, I would likely combine that with casting Enlarge on the familiar first. Even with that, it is less benefit than having a character that is investing in grapple or trip. Level + spellcasting attribute modifier is going to be below optimal. But not so bad that it is unusable.
I'm guessing it is the action economy. So independant (to save you a few actions directing it occasionally), tough, skilled (athletics) on a familiar like a house cat. Then have it potentially do free trips or grapple on anything that is size small and adjacent to you. Might be useful sometimes. Then the Enlarge to make viable against most foes.
I'm still a little confused by all this. Has there been clarification? What *does* a Familiar have the option to do if Grappled?
Under Familiar in the 4th printing of the PF2 CRB it states:
Your familiar's save modifiers and AC are equal to yours before applying circumstance or status bonuses or penalties. Its Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth modifiers are equal to your level plus your spellcasting ability modifier (Charisma if you don't have one, unless otherwise specified). It can't make Strikes, but it can use trained skill actions for skills for which it adds your spellcasting ability modifier. If it attempts an attack roll or other skill check, it uses your level as its modifier. It doesn't have or use its own ability modifiers and can never benefit from item bonuses.
In the Remastered CRB it is merely:
For Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth, you can have your familiar use your spellcasting attribute modifier + your level instead of 3 + your level if it’s higher.
My question is, in the Remaster, what can a Familiar do? Can it make skill-checks?
If it takes the Skilled Familiar ability.
I'm still a little confused by all this. Has there been clarification? What *does* a Familiar have the option to do if Grappled?
My question is, in the Remaster, what can a Familiar do? Can it make skill-checks?
Remaster, Familiars are an add-on of Pet which does still have that rule for skill action usage.
It uses 3 + your level as its modifier for Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth, and just your level as its modifier for other skill checks.
What Remastered familiars do seem to have lost is the ability to use the trained-only actions for skills that they add their master's spellcasting ability to the bonus of. So they are relegated to untrained actions only.
Which I still claim is a problem if I can get the Flying ability and a fly speed, but can't use Maneuver in Flight.
And for some reason can't squeeze through narrow openings. Because trained-only. Somehow I have to take classes in wriggling out of a tight spot in order to be able to do it.
I would allow a familiar to use actions that made sense for it with d20+ your level as a default. You would need to take the Skilled ability to add your spellcasting attribute to it as well with the obvious exception of Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth as they have a specific rule set.
I would allow a badger to Squeeze, for instance, or a bat to Fly. I don't think that creatures/monsters need to follow the Trained part of skills for skill checks since I don't think they have skill training by default.