Lafan312's page

Lafan312 wrote:

Finoan wrote:

Lafan312 wrote:

I actually didn't skip anything, copied it word for word from my Core Rulebook and double checked online (Nethys) as well. No such mention of no Strikes. Where did you find the additional sentence?

Familiar: Modifiers and AC.

My mistake, I didn't look at Nethys. So then why does Nethys contradict the actual text of the CRB? The actual book doesn't have that additional sentence.

Most likely? Check your printing. The CRB is on its 4th printing and therefore 3rd round of errata. That line probably got added during errata to clarify the intent that familiars do not attack.

EDIT: Confirmed from the first Core Rulebook errata. This means you likely have a first printing book

CRB Errata wrote:

Page 217: Familiars' level wasn't explicit. Add "A familiar has the same level you do." The description of familiars didn't define any Strikes but also wasn't explicit that they couldn't make them. Add "It can't make Strikes" to the beginning of the third sentence.

THANK YOU. That's actually helpful. I'm gonna have to look again because I can't find the printing info in my book (it's the red alt cover, if that helps, and that info should be on the first page but no lol).

I'm still looking for clarification on what attacks they can roll for, though, as the "if it attempts an attack roll" line is still intact even on Nethys (which I assume is up to date with errata) . I see that there's a niche familiar that can make Strikes, but that only applies to that specific familiar. I'll see if I can find something in the errata unless someone beats me to it.

Lafan312 wrote:

I actually didn't skip anything, copied it word for word from my Core Rulebook and double checked online (Nethys) as well. No such mention of no Strikes. Where did you find the additional sentence?

Familiar: Modifiers and AC.

My mistake, I didn't look at Nethys. So then why does Nethys contradict the actual text of the CRB? The actual book doesn't have that additional sentence.

Is there a reason that you skipped the most relevant sentence?

"... eption, Acrobatics, and Stealth modifiers are equal to your level plus your spellcasting ability modifier (Charisma if you don't have one, unless otherwise specified). It can't make Strikes, but it can use trained skill actions for skills for which it adds your spellcasting ability modifier. If it attempts an attack roll or other skill check, it uses your level ..."

I actually didn't skip anything, copied it word for word from my Core Rulebook and double checked online (Nethys) as well. No such mention of no Strikes. Where did you find the additional sentence?

I'm also not sure where you are seeing anything about having a -2 penalty. Is that in comparison to Pathfinder first edition?

I found it while digging through the reddit sub for answers, but that thread didn't seem to offer much clarification.

Familiars (without the specific overrides mentioned above by Guntermench) are not allowed to use the Strike action - so no claw attacks or unarmed attacks at all. They simply can't use the action. Even after being targeted by something like Animal Form that would give them stats to make attacks with.

Also by default they don't have any spells or abilities that would target other creatures. Though that is easily added by various things. The most universal being the Spellcasting familiar ability that will give them one spell that could be a spell attack roll spell. At that point they could use that sentence in the rules about if for some reason they do need to make an attack roll or other skill check, then it uses your level as its modifier. Or level + your spellcasting ability (attribute) modifier. Unless the ability that gives them the attack says something else - which many do.

Thank you for the insight. Still digesting it so I don't have much else to say in response, but I appreciate you taking the time to offer an in-depth response.

Hi all. I've come here before looking for answers about what familiars can do and got great feedback on the subject (thank you again), but I'm back looking for help with another related subject regarding RAW and RAI, as I haven't found any relevant info from after the Playtest and before the revamp, or in the CRB and APG. I'm really hoping for some dev input on this one, and at least sage advice from more experienced 2E players.

Rules in question (CRB 217)
"Modifiers and AC
Your familiar’s save modifiers and AC are equal to yours before applying circumstance or status bonuses or penalties. Its Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth modifiers are equal to your level plus your spellcasting ability modifier (Charisma if you don’t have one, unless otherwise specified). If it attempts an attack roll or other skill check, it uses your level as its modifier. It doesn’t have or use its own ability modifiers and can never benefit from item bonuses."

Previously it has been stated that familiars take a -2 penalty, and that they cannot make Strikes at all, but these are no longer in the books I mentioned.
I understand that familiars aren't intended to be melee combatants like a Ranger's animal companion or any Martial's Warhorse, for example, but are they able to perform simple Unarmed Strikes (claw or bite)? Or does this rule's wording refer to Familiar & Master Abilities such as Spell Delivery, and does a familiar have to make a Spell Touch Attack roll in order to deliver the spell to non-willing targets? For that matter, can the Spell Reach feat be applied to familiars if action economy allows for it? Basically, what are the intentions of this rule's wording, and what sort of Attacks does it mean? Thank you.

Edit: formatting

Honestly it seems kind of unnecessarily wordy in general. "Gain two extra familiar abilities" feels like it would have been a lot easier than changing the base number of abilities then editting in exceptions for wizards and witches (and to make it even more awkward, incredible familiar lacks the clarification, and I've seen some people argue that means it doesn't work for those characters).

I mean, the feat is written the same for all classes that have access to it, and the wording makes sense for a class that has access to the Enhanced Familiar feat but lacks the extra ability slots granted by the Familiar Wizard and the Witch. Case in point, the Druid has access to Enhanced Familiar after taking the Leshy Familiar feat, but they don't get the extra ability slots at 1st, 6th, 12th and 18th levels. That being said, you're totally right that just saying "gain two extra familiar abilities" would also work, and honestly it could have saved me the trouble of even making this post in the first place.

Ignore those last questions, I've got it. Thanks for the guide, that thing is a godsend.

Lafan312 wrote:

Oooooooooooooh I see what I did.

"You can select four familiar or master abilities, instead of two."

We cross-posted. :)

And you are correct. It is affecting the base number of abilities which is 2 and changing it to 4. All the extra abilities still apply.

Yeah, I think I just missed the entire last part there, it just kind of clicked right after I made that first reply. lol Thank you for helping me clear this up. Just a couple more final clarification questions.

Gisher wrote:

I'm not exactly sure where you are getting 12.

• As you said, a Wizard with Improved Familiar Attunement Thesis and a Witch both have familiars that start with 3 abilities and eventually have 6.

• Either can take Enhanced Familiar to get 2 more abilities for a maximum of 8.

• Either can take Incredible Familiar to increase their abilities to 10. (The Wizard would need to take Witch Multiclass or Familiar Master to get access to that feat.)

That's the maximum for the standard, switchable abilities. There are two other options, but they don't get you standard, switchable abilities.

• Druid Multiclass gives access to Leshy Familiar Secrets which lets you add one Leshy ability, but the familiar needs to be made into a Leshy first. (A Witch could use Wortwitch to do this.) So that's 11 if you count the Leshy ability with the standard ones.

• Improved Familiar can effectively get you more abilities with a specific familiar. For example, if a specific familiar has 5 abilities and normally costs 5 abilities to acquire, then Improved Familiar would get you 5 abilities for the price of 3 so you'd effectively be getting 2 extra abilities. But specific familiar abilities aren't changeable and often don't match the standard abilities so the count becomes complicated there.

-----

To help your research, here is my list of ways to get familiars and increase their number of abilities.

• Gisher's Guide to Acquiring Familiars

It was my understanding that you add the 4 abilities from Enhanced Familiar to the baseline you get from just your class, and when you're able to take Incredible Familiar you get 2 more?

Edit: thank you for the info though!

Oooooooooooooh I see what I did.

"You can select four familiar or master abilities, instead of two."

I'm not exactly sure where you are getting 12.

• As you said, a Wizard with Improved Familiar Attunement Thesis and a Witch both have familiars that start with 3 abilities and eventually have 6.

• Either can take Enhanced Familiar to get 2 more abilities for a maximum of 8.

• Either can take Incredible Familiar to increase their abilities to 10. (The Wizard would need to take Witch Multiclass or Familiar Master to get access to that feat.)

That's the maximum for the standard, switchable abilities. There are two other options, but they don't get you standard, switchable abilities.

• Druid Multiclass gives access to Leshy Familiar Secrets which lets you add one Leshy ability, but the familiar needs to be made into a Leshy first. (A Witch could use Wortwitch to do this.) So that's 11 if you count the Leshy ability with the standard ones.

• Improved Familiar can effectively get you more abilities with a specific familiar. For example, if a specific familiar has 5 abilities and normally costs 5 abilities to acquire, then Improved Familiar would get you 5 abilities for the price of 3 so you'd effectively be getting 2 extra abilities. But specific familiar abilities aren't changeable and often don't match the standard abilities so the count becomes complicated there.

-----

To help your research, here is my list of ways to get familiars and increase their number of abilities.

• Gisher's Guide to Acquiring Familiars

It was my understanding that you add the 4 abilities from Enhanced Familiar to the baseline you get from just your class, and when you're able to take Incredible Familiar you get 2 more?

Apologies for potential redundancy.
I'm trying to figure out how many abilities are available in total. The Witch and Wizard classes seem to have access to the same advancement (albeit it's an innate part of the Witch but only an option for the Wizard), so at 1st level both classes start with access to 3 Familiar/Master abilities total, and gain an extra ability at 6th, 12th and 18th level. Without taking any of the familiar advancement class feats that gives you a flat 6 abilities.
Unless I've missed something, I believe there are only 2 class feats available to increase the number of abilities available, which start at 4 and max out at 6 with the Enchanted and Incredible Familiar class feats, respectively, giving you access to a total of 12 abilities to distribute between yourself and your familiar.
Is that everything RAW or did I miss something? Is 12 the highest possible number of abilities a PC with a familiar can have? Did I misinterpret the perk granted by Improved Familiar?
Thank you in advance for taking the time to check my work.

Edit: spelling