Questions regarding leap, high jump, long jump and skyseeker.

[*Khan*]

Hi
Can anyone tell me if I can combine skyseeker with a Long jump or High jump (using quick jump to make it 1 action)?
Link to Skyseeker feat.

[Ravingdork]

I do not believe they are compatible. A Long Jump on High Jump are not the same thing as a Leap.

You definitely don't get to use Skyseeker for 1 action. The Skyseeker action =/= the Long Jump, High Jump, or Leap actions. It is it's own distinctive action.

[Baarogue]

Skyseeker, High Jump, and Long Jump are all activities which include the basic action Leap as a subordinate action. You cannot substitute their Leap with another activity that includes Leap

PC p.415, second paragraph under the Subordinate Actions sidebar wrote:

Using an activity is not the same as using any of its subordinate actions. For example, the quickened condition you get from the haste spell lets you spend an extra action each turn to Stride or Strike, but you couldn’t use the extra action for an activity that includes a Stride or Strike.

[*Khan*]

Thanks for your answers.
I didn’t think it was 1 action total.
My idea was to use longjump or highjump to increase the distance of the leaps when I use Skyseeker.

It is a bit confusing when some feats only affects leaps and others only high jump or long jump (Both of which are leaps either horisontal or vertical but with a running start).
Cloud jump fx does not increase leap but only high jump or long jump.

[Easl]

*Khan* wrote:

Thanks for your answers.

I didn’t think it was 1 action total.
My idea was to use longjump or highjump to increase the distance of the leaps when I use Skyseeker.

Yeah, that seems a no-go as they are separate actions. But AIUI feats like Fleet, that passively increase your Speed, would change your Skyseeker leap from 10' (speed of 15'-25') to 15' (speed of 30' or higher), because Skyseeker utilizes the regular leap rules for distance.

[shroudb]

Same for Powerful leaper adding 5ft to your Leaps.

---

There is a difference when something is a specific action.

In this case Leap is a defined action, same for Long Jump.

It is the same as, as an example, Strike. Yes, when you throw a boulder on someone, you are striking him, but you are not necessarily Striking him, which is a specific action.

For Long Jump specifically you can see that it's more than simply stride+Leap. It has a bigger effect but the drawback that you are forced to take a 2 action activity as opposed to simply breaking up the two actions as you see fit.

[Finoan]

*Khan* wrote:

It is a bit confusing when some feats only affects leaps and others only high jump or long jump (Both of which are leaps either horisontal or vertical but with a running start).

Cloud jump fx does not increase leap but only high jump or long jump.

The reason it doesn't work is because Skyseeker specifically says to use Leap. It doesn't say that you can use any 1-action ability that lets you jump some distance.

Leap action specifically.

So you can't use Skyseeker and replace the Leap that Skyseeker gives you with High Jump or Long Jump. Those are different actions. It also doesn't matter if High Jump or Long Jump have been modified. They are still different actions than Leap. See Activities and Subordinate Actions.

Other feats do modify High Jump or Long Jump and those feats will change the effects of using High Jump or Long Jump (any time they are used - even as subordinate actions) - and wouldn't affect Leap. Similarly you can have feats that modify Leap (any Leap including Subordinate action Leap) and don't modify High Jump or Long Jump.

And of course you can have feats like Skyseeker that create new hybrid activities that use one of the actions, but not the others.

[The Contrarian]

Finoan wrote:

Similarly you can have feats that modify Leap...and don't modify High Jump or Long Jump.

Isn't Leap used as the basis for High Jump and Long Jump? I suspect that abilities that effect Leap would likely effect High Jump and Long Jump as a result unless specifically called out otherwise. Note that nearly all the check results say "You Leap..."

[Ectar]

The Contrarian wrote:

Finoan wrote:

Similarly you can have feats that modify Leap...and don't modify High Jump or Long Jump.

Isn't Leap used as the basis for High Jump and Long Jump? I suspect that abilities that effect Leap would likely effect High Jump and Long Jump as a result unless specifically called out otherwise. Note that nearly all the check results say "You Leap..."

I really wish the rules were clearer here.

There are bunch of items and feats that affect your Leap, but it's unclear to me how those things affect the other jumps, which all reference Leaping.
Insofar as I'm aware, they don't. But it's a real FeelsBadMan if that's true.

[Baarogue]

Even if this is his troll or "devil's advocate" alias I actually agree with Ravingdork on this one. But I think it's important to specify that I only agree when it's an ability that alters a subordinate action but is not an action itself, like how Shielded Stride allows you to Stride half your speed if you have your shield raised to prevent triggering reactions to movement; not an action that features an altered subordinate action (i.e. a one action activity), like Sneak. I would allow Shielded Stride to be used in combination with Sudden Charge, but I would not allow Sneak to be used in place of Sudden Charge's subordinate Strides

[Finoan]

The Contrarian wrote:

Finoan wrote:

Similarly you can have feats that modify Leap...and don't modify High Jump or Long Jump.

Isn't Leap used as the basis for High Jump and Long Jump? I suspect that abilities that effect Leap would likely effect High Jump and Long Jump as a result unless specifically called out otherwise. Note that nearly all the check results say "You Leap..."

Sometimes yes, and sometimes no.

If the modification to Leap is changing something that High Jump or Long Jump also uses, then yes. However, very little of High Jump or Long Jump is actually based on Leap as long as you succeed at the check. If you fail the check, then you "Leap normally" - and that would be affected by anything that affects Leap.

But if you had a feat that says that you can Leap once per round as a Free Action, that doesn't also apply to High Jump and Long Jump. It doesn't make those actions cost a Free Action instead of 2 Actions, and it doesn't even decrease the action cost of both of them to 1 Action either.

[Finoan]

As an example feat that interacts with Leap: Swift Leap

Swift Leap wrote:

Your undead physiology allows you to leap quickly toward or away from your opponent. You Leap. This movement doesn't trigger reactions.

With just this sentence, it only affects the Leap action. Not the High Jump or Long Jump actions.

It needs this:

Swift Leap wrote:

If you are satiated, you can choose to end your satiation to instead High Jump or Long Jump without triggering reactions

in order to interact with High Jump or Long Jump.

Also see Sudden Leap which works with all of those actions - because it lists them all in the list of actions that it works with.

[Baarogue]

Finoan wrote:

The Contrarian wrote:

Finoan wrote:

Similarly you can have feats that modify Leap...and don't modify High Jump or Long Jump.

Isn't Leap used as the basis for High Jump and Long Jump? I suspect that abilities that effect Leap would likely effect High Jump and Long Jump as a result unless specifically called out otherwise. Note that nearly all the check results say "You Leap..."

Sometimes yes, and sometimes no.

If the modification to Leap is changing something that High Jump or Long Jump also uses, then yes. However, very little of High Jump or Long Jump is actually based on Leap as long as you succeed at the check. If you fail the check, then you "Leap normally" - and that would be affected by anything that affects Leap.

But if you had a feat that says that you can Leap once per round as a Free Action, that doesn't also apply to High Jump and Long Jump. It doesn't make those actions cost a Free Action instead of 2 Actions, and it doesn't even decrease the action cost of both of them to 1 Action either.

I know what you're trying to say, but this is a poor example. Your conclusion is correct but not for the reason you're positing. You could have a curse that changes your Leap basic action cost to 3 actions and it still wouldn't change the cost of any activity with Leap as a subordinate action because of the part of the Subordinate Action rules that says, "The action that allows you to use a subordinate action doesn't require you to spend more actions or reactions to do so; that cost is already factored in."

and re: Swift Leap and Sudden Leap
Those aren't feats that "interact" or "work with" Leap, High Jump, and Long Jump in the way I described and I assumed RD meant. They're activities which feature those actions as subordinate actions. They can't be used in combination with other activities which feature those actions as subordinate actions, for example: each other

Compare that to Crane Stance, which gives the user an effect that alters the DC for High Jump and Long Jump, and adds distance to Leap. Those could be combined with nearly any activity which features those actions as subordinates, like Swift Leap and Sudden Leap

[Finoan]

Baarogue wrote:

I know what you're trying to say, but this is a poor example. Your conclusion is correct but not for the reason you're positing.

I'm not entirely sure what you are getting at here.

Baarogue wrote:

You could have a curse that changes your Leap basic action cost to 3 actions and it still wouldn't change the cost of any activity with Leap as a subordinate action because of the part of the Subordinate Action rules that says, "The action that allows you to use a subordinate action doesn't require you to spend more actions or reactions to do so; that cost is already factored in."

That is effectively the same example that I gave but going the other direction and worded slightly differently. I had Leap costing a free action instead - and it still doesn't change the action cost of High Jump or Long Jump in either case.

Baarogue wrote:

and re: Swift Leap and Sudden Leap

Those aren't feats that "interact" or "work with" Leap, High Jump, and Long Jump in the way I described and I assumed RD meant. They're activities which feature those actions as subordinate actions. They can't be used in combination with other activities which feature those actions as subordinate actions, for example: each other

Compare that to Crane Stance, which gives the user an effect that alters the DC High Jump and Long Jump, and adds distance to Leap. Those could be combined with nearly any activity which features those actions as subordinates, like Swift Leap and Sudden Leap

Right. So Crane Stance would increase the Leap distance if you use the Leap action directly, or if you fail the check for High Jump or Long Jump and end up Leaping normally instead. It wouldn't add the bonus distance to High Jump or Long Jump - only decrease the check DC - because that is what the feat says that it does.

I can agree that we are coming to the same conclusion - but I am not sure what the distinction between examples is. Is it just that Crane Stance would increase the distance Leaped if you use Swift Leap or Sudden Leap to Leap instead of Long Jump?

[Baarogue]

My point with the previous bit was that your example doesn't address what RD was saying because it's covered by the sub action cost rule

Finoan wrote:

Baarogue wrote:

and re: Swift Leap and Sudden Leap

Those aren't feats that "interact" or "work with" Leap, High Jump, and Long Jump in the way I described and I assumed RD meant. They're activities which feature those actions as subordinate actions. They can't be used in combination with other activities which feature those actions as subordinate actions, for example: each other

Compare that to Crane Stance, which gives the user an effect that alters the DC High Jump and Long Jump, and adds distance to Leap. Those could be combined with nearly any activity which features those actions as subordinates, like Swift Leap and Sudden Leap

Right. So Crane Stance would increase the Leap distance if you use the Leap action directly, or if you fail the check for High Jump or Long Jump and end up Leaping normally instead. It wouldn't add the bonus distance to High Jump or Long Jump - only decrease the check DC - because that is what the feat says that it does.

I can agree that we are coming to the same conclusion - but I am not sure what the distinction between examples is. Is it just that Crane Stance would increase the distance Leaped if you use Swift Leap or Sudden Leap to Leap instead of Long Jump?

What I mean is that Crane Stance would lower the DC of High Jump and Long Jump, no matter if you're doing those actions themselves or they were subordinates of another activity like Swift Leap or Sudden Leap, etc; AND it would increase the distance of your Leap, even those Leaps that are subordinate to another activity like High Jump, Long Jump, Swift Leap and Sudden Leap, or the subordinate High Jump or Long Jump taken during Swift Leap or Sudden Leap. Because all of those activities say "you Leap" <- capital-L Leap, the basic action which is enhanced by Crane Stance