I'm planning a monk for an upcoming campaign, and I'm pretty undecided about what fighting style I will use. Ascetic, Boar and Jabbing all seem good to me for different reasons
These are my set choices for story or flavor reasons:
Race: Dhampir(Nosferatu)
Class: Unchained Monk(Perfect Scholar)
Trait: Intimidate as a class skill.
Everything else I'm fairly undecided on. It'd be nice if someone has some personal experience using this class and especially those fighting styles. I'm not really against the other fighting styles ,if you have a good idea for it.
I went Ascetic Style because I wanted to use a weapon and the feats let me do the style strikes and other unarmed strike stuff with it. I also went down the Dimensional Dervish line, because it's a very good line. Attacking and teleporting in between is nice.
I haven't reached the level yet, but I also plan to take the Nightmare Fist line. It lets me do extra damage in Darkness. Even more when the target is under the effects of Faerie Fire. She's a drow and gets those as SLAs.
The bonus feats were pretty standard since they come from a pre-selected list. Just get Dodge as your first one for the extra AC, then it really doesn't matter too much what you take.
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Before anything, you probably should decide on whether you want to use a weapon or not. UnMonk is proficient with every weapon with the monk special property, so there're plenty of choices. Upsides of weapons compared to unarmed are cheaper enchantment cost (although see Handwraps below), the ability to use them two-handed for both 1.5xStr (that was changed from cMonk) and 3:1 Power Attack ration, the ability to have reach (only beneficial during early levels), and the ability to have different damage types. The downsides are that you can't use the bonus attack from spending ki, or style strikes, with weapons (unless you have the Ascetic Form feat, see below for more on that). That doesn't mean armed builds can't use them, though - they can use an unarmed strike (usually the bonus attack from ki pool) to make the style strike and attack with the weapon the other attacks, which is something especially worthwhile for Flying Kick.
Archetypes:
Unlike cMonk, UnMonk is a fully functional class without archetypes, but there are some that are worth looking at:
Invested Regent replaces just the first bonus feat and lets you grab additional spell-like abilities in place of feats (bonus or regular); your pool won't be overly large but some of these SLAs are rather nice. Air Walk (at 10th level) alone makes this archetype very potent, as lack of flight is one of the unMonk’s biggest weaknesses. Don’t let the pool keying off charisma fool you, if you just use the pool for Air Walk and maybe some conditional stuff, even a 7 Cha would still be fine.
Windstep Master replaces the 4th level ki power with the ability to walk on air. Already pretty nice, especially when you don't plan on taking Empty Body early on, it gets outstanding if your GM allows you to make Flying Kicks while in the air (RAW is very unclear, but they are called "flying" kicks after all!).
Soul Sheperd replaces Stunning Fist and Evasion with DR and resistances, and at 12th level gains Blindsight for living and undead creatures, which is extremely good.
Perfect Scolar replaces Still Mind and the 4th level ki power with a bonus to knowledges (and gets all of them as class skills).
Scaled Fist is an often mentioned archetype that changes your key ability score to charisma. Can be nice for a race with charisma bonus and wisdom penalty, but is otherwise a downgrade. You need to invest in improving the will save, and Monk doesn’t have the skill ranks to make much use of charisma based skills.
Feats: Apart from the archetype, your most important choice is probably going to be which style chain/VMC you use.
The "normal" paths would be Ascetic Style, Dragon Style, Jabbing Style, Pummeling Style, VMC Barbarian, VMC Magus, or using none of the above. Apart from Dragon Style, they all also work with Weapon Finesse, although VMC Barbarian only if you take unchained Barbarian as a base. There is no single best play-style for unMonk throughout all levels, if you're interested in damage comparisons, check my unMonk DPR calculator for exact numbers throughout levels 1-16.
The easiest method is style-less, i.e. not using any style feat chain at all and instead grabbing assorted feats like Power Attack and Possessed Hand - it's not much weaker (at some early levels even stronger) than other styles and allows greater flexibility. Also has the advantage of not needing a swift action to enter a style, which can be relevant in surprise fights.
Ascetic Style (up to Ascetic Form) is something like the default style for armed - it's not exactly necessary, but it is much smoother (and more flavorful) than weapon based style-less, and it's also pretty much top dog for damage. You basically get all the goodies of both armed and unarmed (including ki pool's DR penetration ability, and even the scaling damage), for the cost of a few feats.
Dragon Style (up to Dragon Ferocity) is something like the default style for unarmed - low investment (only two feats) and comes online very early (3rd level).
Pummeling Style (up to Pummeling Charge) is a possibility if you want more maneuverability, especially on open battlefields. You'd use your early feats on singular feats like Power Attack, and the build in DR penetration is nice, but your style only really comes online at 9th level. It does, however, free up style strikes even if you have to move.
Jabbing Style (up to Jabbing Master) depends a bit on the enemies - the higher the AC, the weaker it is, while target switches aren't helpful either. Also needs four feats and only becomes good at 9th, but can do a lot of damage and has some added mobility. Note that against tougher enemies, you don't want to use Power Attack.
VMC Barbarian takes even more feats (every other feat, plus you probably want Extra Rage) and lowers your AC, but it comes online early (3rd level), and has some nice additional benefits (well, it's Rage), including a Rage Power at 11th level. Like style-less it has the advantage of not needing a swift action at the start of combat to get ready.
VMC Magus takes at least as many feats (you definitely want Extra Arcana, as the Magus Arcana you get at 7th level will be Ki Arcana), comes partially online at 3rd level, but becomes pretty crazy at 10th level, when you can basically make every attack against touch AC by (ab)using Accurate Strike and the Ki Leech ki power. Touch attacks sadly can't profit from Power Attack, and the swift action is already used and thus isn't available for the bonus ki attack, but the damage is still very high, and you could add Flamboyant Arcana for a defense boost via OP&R.
Jabbing Style and Pummeling Style don't actually require you to be in their stance to work, meaning you don't need a swift action to activate them and you can use them alongside other style feats. You wouldn't get to use the follow-up feats (those always require an active stance), both these two can be tacked onto basically everything.
Other good general feats are Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Extra Ki, and as usual improvements to saves (Iron Will, Steel Soul etc.).
Humans and half-humans have the option to pick up a fly speed by taking Planar Heritage, Airy Step, & ]Wings of Air. Not cheap, but very strong.
Bonus Feats: The stand-out ones are Dodge, Deflect Arrows, and Medusa's Wrath, plus depending on campaign, build, and allies, Mobility and Combat Expertise. Improved Critical is the only one to directly increase your damage; it's fairly good for weapons with an increases thread range, but very weak for unarmed. Improved Grapple and Improved Trip are also nice as fall-back options.
Style Strikes: Your first or second style strike will be Flying Kick, period (the only exception would be Pummeling Charge builds, and even than Flying Kick can be useful). It takes a while to be really good, especially when adventuring in open spaces, which is why selecting it at 9th level can be okay, but this is the main reason unMonk is so much better than cMonk.
Defensive Spin boosts AC, Elbow Smash boosts damage (it's usually the best style strike for that).
Foot Stomp prevents escape; including 5-feet-steps.
Ki Powers: There are too many ki powers to list all the good ones, and a lot of it depends on your build. Notable standouts:
Empty Body (4th) grants amazing versatility, especially outfight, to a class very much lacking just that. Rather ki hungry early on, but flight, invisibility, and intangibility is awesome.
Barkskin (4th, Qinggong) grants some very welcomed AC boost, and is all but mandatory when using an AoMF (which prevents you from using an Amulet of Natural Armor).
Ki Metabolism (4th) allows you to hold your breath for >10 hours, which can be very helpful for underwater exploration/fighting.
Placebo Effect (6th, Qinggong) can surpress most conditions from yourself or allies.
Restoration (8th) removes all ability damage or drain and even negative levels. Self-only, but you get to ignore the material component cost.
Freedom of Movement (8th) is a swift action to use, and it's a supernatural ability, meaning you can have it active exactly when you need it to.
Insightful Wisdom (8th) doesn't help yourself, but can easily save party members.
Ki Leech (10th, Qinggong) costs no ki to activate, meaning it can be sustained indefinitely, and should remove all ki problems.
Dust Form (12th, Qinggong) is amazing for defense, as it makes you immune against non-magical damage, only take half magical damage, and be affected only half the time by non-damage spells.
Diamond Soul (12th) is better than the cMonk's permanent version, as you can activate it after getting buffed by your party.
Cold Ice Strike (14th, Qinggong) is a swift action AoE damage spell doing around 50 average damage.
Unshakable Zeal (16th, Qinggong) lasts all day long and can grant free attack roll and maybe even other bonuses.
Ki Volley (16th) requires Diamond Soul, but can bounce back hostile spells.
Akashic Form (20th, Qinggong) is crazy powerful, outright negating death even multiple times per day.
Action Before Thought (6th) starts weak, but becomes very interesting in combination with Ki Leech.
The Thought Shield line (I at 4th, II at 8th, III at 10th, IV at 12th don't take this one!, V at 14th; Qinggong) can do a lot to shore up the will save, although you might want to ask the GM about retraining ki powers.
Equipment: At early levels, you'll probably want to use one of the three monk reach weapons, Double-chained Kama, Kusarigama, and Kyoketsu Shoge. All are weird, but Kusarigama and Kyoketsu Shoge also have two different damage types. Since Flying Kick requires you to end adjacent to the enemy, you'll want to use a non-reach weapon later on, Sansetsukon or Seven-branched Sword have the highest base damage (Sansetsukon is slightly superior because 19-20/x2 is better than 20/x3). If you prefer, you can just want to start with one of them, dealing more damage early on for losing the usual benefits of reach (AoOs and higher chance of full attacking). It's possible to flurry with any melee weapon by using the Versatile Design weapon modification and Ascetic Form, but you need to spend a feat or two on proficiency, and mechanically, it's usually not worth it. For unarmed, there's two ways to "enchant" unarmed strikes, both with weaknesses. Handwraps come at regular cost, but you won't be getting the bonus on some style strikes, while Amulet of Mighty Fists affect all unarmed strikes but cost twice as much (and also blocks your neck slot, so you'll really want the Barkskin ki power). Mathematically, using Handwraps is better for most levels even during turns in which you use flying kick, but you have to deal with different attack and damage rolls, and while flying kick is about the movement, Foot Stomp and Leg Sweep mainly care about hitting, making an AoMF better if you chose to use those.
Weapon Finesse based builds can go either unarmed, or use weapons, the best ones are Sanpkhang and Cestus. If not using Ascetic Style, the best weapon is Waveblade.
Something of a 'must have' item is a Wand of Mage Armor, handed to an arcane caster of your choice. You can be generous with the charges, as your caster buddy should have 1st level spell slots to spare by the time you've used them all. Unarmed builds should also buy a Scizore, which is a weapon that grants a +1 shield bonus to AC when worn (you don't need to care about proficiency since you never attack with it). Not an actual shield so it can't be enchanted, but it doesn't hamper your Monk abilities like a shield would.
If your GM lets you use an item from a PFS module, the Braid of a Hundred Masters (yes, this is a legit PF item, it's just not on AoN of d20pfsrd; it’s from a PFS scenario) increases the effective level of the fast movement, which basically means +10ft Flying Kick range.
Multiclassing: Multiclassing is, of course, possible. UnMonk does gain quite a lot from staying in class, though - bonus attack at 11th level, ki powers that can be very strong (like Ki Leech at 10th level), and style strikes/improved Flying Kick range. A dip into Bloodrager would be okay, but I wouldn't recommend lowering your accuracy by dipping into a non-full-BAB class.
If I do go ascetic style, I think I’ll go with temple sword. It’s only one die smaller and I could still use it if I lost use of an arm like when being grappled. And ascetic strike will eventually replace the damage die anyway.
I implied this in my first post but I didn’t specify, that I would be getting my intimidate as high as I easily can for story reasons. That is why I’m considering boar style. But also boar style seems handy when you are fighting underwater. Though I don’t currently expect to see much underwater combat in this adventure.
The problem with temple sword is that it's not in the monk weapon group, and thus is incompatible with Ascetic Style. The Nine-Section Whip is an alternative. Note: Using a one-handed weapon enables you to make AoOs with your weapon while being able to use Deflect Arrows.
Adding Boar Style to my calculator, it's actually pretty great, it just wasn't on my radar. Using just the first feat makes it the best unarmed style until 11th level (and you don't miss out that much by going for the second feat at 7th level). The third feat sucks.
If the free action demoralize is the goal, weapon-based with Cornugon Smash would beat it, although the difference is tiny below 9th level. Note: Ascetic Style path has you feat-starved and would push Cornugon Smash back to 9th level on a non-human.
Since the temple sword was mentioned, I'd like to point out the feat Crusader's Flurry. It lets you treat your deity's favored weapon as if it was a monk weapon. Dipping a single level of Crusader Cleric is enough to qualify. It trades out one of the domains and one spell per level, but that's not something you'll really care about. What's important is getting Channel Energy and Weapon Focus as a bonus feat.
That opens up a ton of weapon options. I went with the Green Faith myself to get a scimitar. It had a better crit range and I could two-hand for more damage.
I don’t exactly have a goal of demoralizing, but my plan includes having decent intimidate anyway. So if I can find a use for it, then great. But if not then it will just be there for flavor.
I could use the nine section whip. My GM would probably be ok with the temple sword though since that seems more like an oversight.
Adding Boar Style to my calculator, it's actually pretty great, it just wasn't on my radar. Using just the first feat makes it the best unarmed style until 11th level (and you don't miss out that much by going for the second feat at 7th level). The third feat sucks.
Is 1d6 bleed damage just not enough for a feat? At least it could be skipped for some other feat.
What do you want the character to do? Are you looking to increase your offensive abilities, or do you want to boost your defenses? Without knowing what your concept is, it is difficult to give decent advice.
What do you want the character to do? Are you looking to increase your offensive abilities, or do you want to boost your defenses? Without knowing what your concept is, it is difficult to give decent advice.
I really haven’t decided that part of the character. Ultimately, I just want it to be fun, so I was hoping others had tried these options and could tell me the good and bad of their experiences.
Is 1d6 bleed damage just not enough for a feat? At least it could be skipped for some other feat.
It depends on the campaign, of course. Bleed has the advantage of hidnering spellcasting, but the damage itself is rather pitiable: At 9th level, you have five attacks, a +3.5 damage once per round is the equivalent of between +0.85 and +1.1 to damage rolls. I think it's clear that this is not great when you could take Possessed Hand or Power Attack instead. Of course, an unMonk's damaghe can be very high, too high for some campaigns/groups, so maybe you don't want to optimize.
What do you want the character to do? Are you looking to increase your offensive abilities, or do you want to boost your defenses? Without knowing what your concept is, it is difficult to give decent advice.I really haven’t decided that part of the character. Ultimately, I just want it to be fun, so I was hoping others had tried these options and could tell me the good and bad of their experiences.
If you look at my list, almost none of the ki powers are offensive, so even if you spend the feats on offense you can get great ultility and defense.
Since the temple sword was mentioned, I'd like to point out the feat Crusader's Flurry. It lets you treat your deity's favored weapon as if it was a monk weapon. Dipping a single level of Crusader Cleric is enough to qualify. [...]
That opens up a ton of weapon options. I went with the Green Faith myself to get a scimitar. It had a better crit range and I could two-hand for more damage.
Be aware thzt Crusader's Flurry doesn't let you use the weapon for style strikes or the ki bonus attack. Overall I think the cost of a dip is rather high, in relation to the reward.
The same Crusader Cleric dip, taking Weapon Adept instead of Crusader's Flurry, does allow the deity's weapon to be used with Ascetic Style (with Versatile Design, obviously), by the way. One could even grab Domain Strike to apply the first level power of the Repose Domain, which fulfills the condition for Medusa's Wrath, whose bonus attacks you can make with the weapon thanks to Ascetic Style. But man is that a lot of feats, and the cost of the dip remains...
I enjoyed a Panther Style Monk, not the best DPR at low levels but it made for very different strategy and play style in combats at higher level.
My issue with Panther Style is how weirdly mechanical it is. You don't have to make AoOs, and creatures played possessing realistic intelligence would stop making them when they see that they only get punished for doing so, but do they know the difference between AoOs and regular attacks? And how ghealthy is it for the party if enemies quickly start ignoring the monk (who doesn't do much damage, as they're moving around rather than attacking) and going exclusively for the squishies?
For some extra context, the party has a full arcane caster and a full divine caster. There may also be a new player playing some form of martial. So I’m covering the front liner and damage roles mostly. But that’s still a really vague goal. Mechanically, I just want to perform well while being fun to play. Very few characters don’t want good damage and survivability and that’s about where I am.
Also, there is the possibility of being magic item starved so I can’t count on magic items to make ends meet.
I’m sure I want to go strength based. My stats are high-average, with 18 in strength and wisdom after racial modifiers.
Weapon-based is leading my thoughts right now for being so straightforward and letting me take advantage of two handing modifiers.
Boar is pretty fun and thematic though. Ripping people apart with your hands just sounds cool
The problem with temple sword is that it's not in the monk weapon group, and thus is incompatible with Ascetic Style.
I checked the archives and the temple sword is in the monk weapon group.
Weapon-based is leading my thoughts right now for being so straightforward and letting me take advantage of two handing modifiers.
How high a level will your character reach? Weapon-based pulls ahead at around 9th level, due to the benefits of 1.5xStr and 3:1 Power Attack ratio growing and growing.
I checked the archives and the temple sword is in the monk weapon group.
And I checked the PDF of every single listed book and the definitive blog post and it's not. Some of the books don't mention weapon groups at all, and those who do only list it in heavy blades. I can't find any official source that actually has the Temple Sword in the Monk Weapon Group.
Ascetic Style (Combat, Style) feat Special: A 5th-level monk or character with the weapon training (monk) class feature can use Ascetic Style with any monk weapon, in addition to the chosen melee weapon.
Fighter Weapon Groups ... Monk: ... temple sword... yep.
First, the specials ection cares about it being a monk weapon, i.e. having the monk special property. The special section does let you apply Ascetic Style to a temple sword. What it doesn't do is let you apply Ascetic Form to a temple sword, because that feat has no such special section, and AStyle's special section doesn't expand to other feats. Which means no Style Strikes or ki bonus attack with the weapon.
I have genuinly no idea what you are trying to convey with the rest of your post.
Your weapon list is missing some crit stats, by the way (Sansetsukon and Nine-Section Whip are 19-20, Seven-Branched Sword and Nine-Ring Broadsword are x3).
Aren’t the archives an official source?
AoN is a, well, archive collecting the pubished rules, it doesn't make rules.
Why would it not carry over to the rest of the chain? Ascetic Style mentions weapon groups. Ascetic FORM does not. Ascetic Form just says that you need Ascetic Style, Weapon Focus, and either a BAB or monk level of 5.
Why would it not carry over to the rest of the chain?
Because nothing says it does. That's how the rules work.
Ascetic Style mentions weapon groups. Ascetic FORM does not. Ascetic Form just says that you need Ascetic Style, Weapon Focus, and either a BAB or monk level of 5.
AForm: "Benefit: You can use the chosen melee weapon with any class ability that can be used with an unarmed strike"
It doesn't ask for "a weapon affected by Ascetic Style", it specifies the weapon chose for Ascetic Style. A monk weapon that you didn't chose for Ascetic Style is not chosen, even if affected due to the special section.
AoN is a, well, archive collecting the pubished rules, it doesn't make rules.
That's debatable, but are you sure you have access to all of the sources the weapon has been published in? Maybe it got added in some unknown source.
In the discussion following the blog post it is said that Humans of Golarion added it to the monk group. I don't have the book to confirm however.
In the discussion following the blog post it is said that Humans of Golarion added it to the monk group. I don't have the book to confirm however.
Humans of Golarion (p. 25) puts the Temple Sword in both the Heavy Blades and the Monk fighter weapon groups
Why would it not carry over to the rest of the chain?Because nothing says it does. That's how the rules work.
Ascetic Style mentions weapon groups. Ascetic FORM does not. Ascetic Form just says that you need Ascetic Style, Weapon Focus, and either a BAB or monk level of 5.AForm: "Benefit: You can use the chosen melee weapon with any class ability that can be used with an unarmed strike"
It doesn't ask for "a weapon affected by Ascetic Style", it specifies the weapon chose for Ascetic Style. A monk weapon that you didn't chose for Ascetic Style is not chosen, even if affected due to the special section.
So you agree that a weapon chosen for Ascetic Style can be chosen for Ascetic Form, then?
Humans of Golarion (p. 25) puts the Temple Sword in both the Heavy Blades and the Monk fighter weapon groups
Ah, thank you! I distantly remembered something, and originally wanted to simply comment on Temple Sword's status as in the monk group as being uncertain, but couldn't find what it was. thanks to AoN not listing that one source.
Of course, per the official statement, the version from a later hard cover "will be Paizo's default version for adventures, NPC compilations, and the like moving forward", which is the case here...
So you agree that a weapon chosen for Ascetic Style can be chosen for Ascetic Form, then?
You don't chose anything for Ascetic Form, it uses the selection you had made for Ascetic Style.
Not sure what your point is. AStyle's special section still doesn't make any other weapon "the chosen melee weapon", and thus cannot possibly have an impact on which weapon benefits from AForm.
So Derklord made an error based on the pdfs they had on hand, no biggie.
AoN made the error in their sources list, as they omitted Humans of Golarion and yet included information from that very book.
the rest of my previous post does what it says...
Well, I assumed you had a reason for what you posted, but I guess I was wrong there. [ooc]Also, it's weird that you have the crit stats for one weapon but not the others, don't you think?[/url]