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I think a lot of people are likely aware at this point that Embodiment of Battle + Grudge Strike pretty much gives Fighter levels of accuracy to Animists at the cost of having to sustain EoB every turn thus leaving you with just two actions and pretty much not allowing you to move that much (unless you also have Sustaining Dance). I don't think this necessarily OP as it has a heavy action tax attached to it and it's literally limited to a single attack per turn, though I feel some tables will find it cumbersome to track all these modifiers, so I think there should be a way to simply this and keep the floating bonuses at minimum, while also fix some things that I think got skipped while creating these options. I propose the following fixes for EoB and GT for that:
EMBODIMENT OF BATTLE [one-action]
[Uncommon] [Animist]
Duration sustained up to 1 minute
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Your apparition guides your attacks and imparts its skill to your movements. For the duration, your proficiency with simple weapons, martial weapons, and unarmed attacks is equal to your proficiency with spell attacks, you gain a +1 status bonus to attack and damage rolls made with weapons or unarmed attacks, you gain the Reactive Strike reaction (Player Core 138), and you gain the critical specialization effect for any weapon you are wielding when you Cast or Sustain this Spell. The instincts of an apparition of battle run contrary to the use of magic; for the duration of this spell, you take a –2 status penalty to your spell attack modifier and your spell DCs.
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Heigtened (4th) The status bonus to damage rolls granted by this spell is increased to +2, the status penalty to your spell attack modifier and your spell DCs decreases to -3.
Heigtened (7th) The status bonus to damage rolls granted by this spell is increased to +3.
Heigtened (10th) The status bonus to damage rolls granted by this spell is increased to +4, the status penalty to your spell attack modifier and your spell DCs decreases to -4.
I think using your spell attack proficiency with simple weapons, martial weapons, and unarmed attacks is a way more simpler metric than just give you attack and damage bonuses to weapons, and speaking about unarmed attacks, I also thought it was really weird that they didn't scale alongside your simple and martial weapons with this spell. Since under this proposal you would eventually reach legendary proficiency I thought the penalty to spells should increase as well, though accuracy-wise someone with EoB + GT or someone with this new EoB have exactly the same accuracy (Expert + 3 EoB + 2 GT vs. Legendary + 1 EoB).
The status bonus to damage still goes up, mimicking what a regular martial would get with Greater Weapon Specialization if it got legendary weapon proficiencies. If people found this a little too much, I guess just keep the damage scaling up to +2 since you will already get a +4 from the Animist's Weapon Specialization, effectively having the same bonuses as martials with GWS with master weapon proficiencies.
GRUDGE STRIKE [two-actions]
[Animist] [Apparition] [Divine] [Wandering]
Duration One of the apparitions you are attuned to grants Heraldry Lore or Underworld Lore as an apparition skill.
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You channel the spiritual power of ancient rivalries or spiteful grudges into a devastating attack. Make a Strike. This counts as two attacks when calculating your multiple attack penalty. If this Strike hits, you deal one extra die of void damage, with the same die size as the weapon or unarmed attack you used; if the target is undead, this Strike instead deals an additional extra die of vitality damage. This ability gains the vitality trait if it deals vitality damage, or the void trait if it deals void damage. If you're at least 10th level, increase this to two extra dice, and if you're at least 18th level, increase it to three extra dice.
I tweaked this one to be similar to the Undead Slayer's Slayer's Strike strike feat, since I felt the +2 bonus to attack made it almost a feat tax for Animists that wanted to be gishes, which also isn't needed anymore since I already altered EoB to work much better on it's own (this also would avoid people taking the Animist Dedication down the line to get a +2 to attack). I also felt the 2d6 vs. one extra damage die made it much better than pretty much all the other Power Attack-esque alternatives in the game, which is kinda weird since the Animist is a caster first. With that said, I feel this feat should have another minor effect attached to it. I didn't just copy-paste the "Any further Strikes you make against the same creature before the start of your next turn using the same weapon or unarmed attack deal extra positive damage equal to the number of weapon dice." part of Slayer's Strike since EoB + GT uses literally can't make further attacks unless quickened. Since this feat is called Grudge Strike, probably you can add one extra void / vitality die if the creature you attack dealt damage to you in the previous turn?
What do you guys think about this?
On the contrary, I think it is important to have multiple different modifiers available depending on your party.
If one of the party is a bard, marshal etc. and is handing out status bonuses, you do not have to have the EoB spell up; you can instead put up the Garden of Healing aura or the Discomfiting Whispers aura, which are very good defensive options. And as long as you are attuned to the Witness to Ancient Battles or the Impostor in Hidden Places - not even as your primary apparition - you can still Grudge Strike at +2 circumstance.
Alternatively, if an ally is handing out circumstance bonuses with Aid, you can avoid Grudge Striking and instead use other actions, such as strike + raise shield, strike + stride, strike + 1-action heal, while still benefitting from EoB.
The problem with that is that if you don't have EoB up you can't use martial weapons, so it's very likely that you won't go into melee. I agree GS is the one that offers a little more versatility if you don't take WoAB though.
Yeah, but the problem with that is they don't scale (I guess it wouldn't be as troublesoume with a caster) but regardless I would want them to avoid making classes with obvious pitfalls so people can fill them through dipping with Free Archetype. Exemplar is in a similar spot since it's limited to light armor, so most Exemplars are going to dip Sentinel most likely.
The real problem is what to call them? Batmanimist? Animattle? I keep thinking of a character called Anna “Ani” Baptiste.
I understand WHY EoB is a huge STATUS bonus. So your L progression full caster doesn't get to lvl 9 heroism its self and bully the Fighter.
Also EoB doesn't reach Fighter Prof does it? "just" full martial. +7 Apex Atrb Item + +6 Master = 13 vs +5 atrb +3 Focus +4 Expert = 12 (yes it'd be 13 if you also Apexed a Str / Dex item - then sure, Fighter prof WITH GS)
I honestly don't know what to say. It's a big paradigme shift in terms of the PF "meta" but it's also VERY complicated for new players. I spent something like 6 hours digging through nethys for Circumstances bonuses after seeing the stream but before the playtest document was live and i knew about GS and uhm... there arn't alot. Also end of the day EoB could just be written "for the duration swap your proficiency in divine casting and simple weapons" - if you give theorycrafters the smallest crack in a door to make a full martial, full caster build, they're gonna take it. It's on Paizo to decide if the game is ready for a class like that and what the drawbacks are for the kind of flexibility.
Also calling it now if Animist EoB goes even close to this to live - aka martial prof caster, Warrior Muse bard is going to be very similar. Something like "the bonus from your own inspire courage is +2/+3"
The easiest most consistent way to squeeze marshal-ish damage out of EoB i found was Beastmaster + Gunslinger Dedications. Ride a Draft Lizard (Highhelm) Command to Stride + Support (+1 Circumstance on your next attack) then Triggerbrand Salvo / Stab and Blast. If it hits the ranged portion is at a +2. If Gunslinger is uncommon another options is Twin Takedown or Flury of Blows (basically any of the 1 action 2 strikes activities) then 3rd action sustain.
Sustaining dance i'd say is also a must if your leaning on this kind of playstyle. But then we get into wierd stuff like grabbing Powerful Leap and Boots of Bounding "just" for a 25 ft "land" speed.
But i aggree and very good catch: the +2 Circumstance to hit on GS can't go live. It's way to poachable.
Also EoB doesn't reach Fighter Prof does it? "just" full martial. +7 Apex Atrb Item + +6 Master = 13 vs +5 atrb +3 Focus +4 Expert = 12 (yes it'd be 13 if you also Apexed a Str / Dex item - then sure, Fighter prof WITH GS)
EoB alone reaches Master + 1 accuracy, which is already way higher than what other caster gishes get in the system by far. It's literally even higher than what martials get even at 13th level.
The only thing that comes to mind that could help avoid legendary prof cheese would be something like this instead, assuming Grudge Strike is removed or severely nerfed and EoB isn't of easy access for other casters:
EMBODIMENT OF BATTLE [one-action]
[Uncommon] [Animist]
Duration sustained up to 1 minute
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Your apparition guides your attacks and imparts its skill to your movements. For the duration, your proficiency rank with simple weapons, martial weapons, and unarmed attacks becomes trained, you gain the Reactive Strike reaction (Player Core 138), and you gain the critical specialization effect for any weapon you are wielding when you Cast or Sustain this Spell. The instincts of an apparition of battle run contrary to the use of magic; for the duration of this spell, you take a –2 status penalty to your spell attack modifier and your spell DCs.
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Heigtened (4th) Your proficiency rank with simple weapons, martial weapons, and unarmed attacks increases to expert.
Heigtened (8th) Your proficiency rank with simple weapons, martial weapons, and unarmed attacks increases to master.
I'd like to see Grudge Strike actually deal more damage at higher levels similar to Power Attack. Or change the 2d6 to being 2d#m Where # = Weapon damage die size of void damage or vitality if fighting undead. It would make the class feat scale a little bit better.
I'd like to see Grudge Strike actually deal more damage at higher levels similar to Power Attack. Or change the 2d6 to being 2d#m Where # = Weapon damage die size of void damage or vitality if fighting undead. It would make the class feat scale a little bit better.
I think it's very likely that in release Grudge Strike is going to be way closer to Slayer's Strike than it is to it's current form IMO.