The god of vampires is the Demon Lord Zura, actually. I'm not trying to refute your original point, especially with Zura being the most vampirin'est vampire to ever vampire, and sounding real similar to Urgathoa, but I did want to point that out.
I've always found it interesting that, while Urgathoa is the goddess of all undeath, many types of undead get their own personalized patron deities, as well.
I didn't mean it literally but... Conceptually, basically. It is, ultimately, a bit of a "sex thing."
Out of all the most common, popular undead, vampires, zombies, mummies, ghosts, skeletons (and thus liches) - and wraiths, perhaps, thanks to Tolkien. Only one of those is regularly popularised as having sexual characteristics. Hell, out of the aforementioned, only very occasionally are mummies or ghosts made - to be blunt into something considered "bangable." (Frack, outside of Divnity Original Sin 2, I have cannot recall seeing anyone ever trying to imply Sex Things with skeletons... Only Larien....)
Vampires, then, with their popular "attractive" thing and the whole personal magnetism thing, on to of connotations of the whole blood-drinking thing (and how so often that is sensualised as well) just feel like they are... Not only just human, but aiming at the lowest common denominator. And because they are the MOST human, they are the LEAST interesting.
Uragotha's portfolio, by design or convergeance, basically puts her in the same boat. It feels like there could have been much, much more interesting things to do with her other than go that route, especially since, intentional or not, the hedonism (has at least given me the impression of) equatating to Sex Things again, and I feel that's, like, a cop-out. Especially in a field which feels a bit full. Rather than adding a dimension, to just being a goddess of undeath, it feels like it flattens her out?
I believe the overall diety of undeath would have been more interesting starting from a position of beyond BEYOND Sex Things entirely; and why wouldn't they, since sex, is, at its basis, a process for continuing life, something that undead creature emphatically don't NEED anymore.
But talking about it perhaps throwing into more relief even for myself than I had previously really thought, y'know?
And, until something happens, that's what we've got.
(Tar-Baphon becoming a deity would make him too Off-Brand Vecna, and he's already leaning a little bit that way.)
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I mean, if you think the only kind of hedonism the goddess of gluttony might be associated with is a "sex thing", that's kind of something you brought to the table with you.
No doubt Urgathoa's got some sex things going on, but really it's the forbidden hungers generally pervasive among most kinds of undead which form the basis of her theming. She loved all the pleasures of life, not just the horny ones.
Yeah, Urgathoa's not a Sex Deity in much of anything I've ever read - but she does preside over feasts like, all the time. I think this is a personal interpretation of the goddess that's not super rooted in the text.
IIRC Geb is more powerful than Tar-Baphon.
Geb is level 23 in 2e. Tar-Baphon is CR 26/MR 10 in 1e. Tar-Baphon is still probably stronger, since I'm not sure the events of Tyrant's Grasp would permanently weaken him that much.
I mean, if you think the only kind of hedonism the goddess of gluttony might be associated with is a "sex thing", that's kind of something you brought to the table with you.
No doubt Urgathoa's got some sex things going on, but really it's the forbidden hungers generally pervasive among most kinds of undead which form the basis of her theming. She loved all the pleasures of life, not just the horny ones.
All I can say it that is the angle that has seemd most prominent in what I've RETAINED after having read, but that, really, the whole hedonism aspect is ITSELF rather problematic for the connotations the cncept presents.
(If you want to take a stance I am so fracking fed-up with sex and all its aspects being waved around throughout human culture and I am sick to the back teeth of it being everywhere; that would be probably fair, as on a bad day, I wouldn't find it at all concerning it some outside horror waved the entire concept of sexual reproduction and all its associated fallout away entirely. (I say "bad" day, like that's not a normal day; there are no good days, anymore.)
But, leaving that aside, even just taking the feasts et al at face value, Undead, again, are beyond having to NEED to deal with food (except for ghouls and vampires, basically) and I think it's just not an idea that I think fits well with the vast majority of undead.
But again, this discussion of it it arguably more thought than I previously gave it; which perhaps is more damning itself that Urugotha who should *side glance at avatar* have been a fairly easy sell to me, is just not interesting to me at best, and off-putting to me at worst.
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I mean, if you think the only kind of hedonism the goddess of gluttony might be associated with is a "sex thing", that's kind of something you brought to the table with you.
No doubt Urgathoa's got some sex things going on, but really it's the forbidden hungers generally pervasive among most kinds of undead which form the basis of her theming. She loved all the pleasures of life, not just the horny ones.
All I can say it that is the angle that has seemd most prominent in what I've RETAINED after having read, but that, really, the whole hedonism aspect is ITSELF rather problematic for the connotations the cncept presents.
(If you want to take a stance I am so fracking fed-up with sex and all its aspects being waved around throughout human culture and I am sick to the back teeth of it being everywhere; that would be probably fair, as on a bad day, I wouldn't find it at all concerning it some outside horror waved the entire concept of sexual reproduction and all its associated fallout away entirely. (I say "bad" day, like that's not a normal day; there are no good days, anymore.)
But, leaving that aside, even just taking the feasts et al at face value, Undead, again, are beyond having to NEED to deal with food (except for ghouls and vampires, basically) and I think it's just not an idea that I think fits well with the vast majority of undead.
But again, this discussion of it it arguably more thought than I previously gave it; which perhaps is more damning itself that Urugotha who should *side glance at avatar* have been a fairly easy sell to me, is just not interesting to me at best, and off-putting to me at worst.
I'll admit I find your stance interesting, especially since I personally consider Urgathoa to be the most interesting undead god I've really seen in TTRPGs. I can understand why becoming a Lich doesn't really fit with the majority of what she's about, but I love the idea that the ur-Undead creature, the first divine Undead and inadvertent progenitor of the grand majority of Undead, didn't come back from death out of some nihilism or desire to turn everything Undead and brood over a dead universe.
No, she's someone who adored living and living in excess so much she refused to let death be the end of her party days. She's someone who pushes you to live life to the fullest and then claw your way back afterwards and keep going. Consumption to the point of vomiting is something she preaches, as is spreading disease, cannibalism, sex is a part of it but definitely not a major part.
Heck, her holy book is also a cannibalistic cookbook! That's just the kind of goddess she is.
Also, the fact she's so opposite what other undead and evil death deities are typically like, and yet is way too powerful for any of them to really challenge or usurp her, adds to her character. She's a bit basic true, she has no long term goals or long standing plans, has no aspirations to destroy Pharasma or anything, but really that's nice and refreshing; she came back to have a good time and that's all the motivation she needed to break reality asunder.
EDIT: I'll say she's often described as a hedonist, but really she's a libertine and that what makes her brand of seeking experiences particularly heinous.
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I'll admit I find your stance interesting, especially since I personally consider Urgathoa to be the most interesting undead god I've really seen in TTRPGs. I can understand why becoming a Lich doesn't really fit with the majority of what she's about, but I love the idea that the ur-Undead creature, the first divine Undead and inadvertent progenitor of the grand majority of Undead, didn't come back from death out of some nihilism or desire to turn everything Undead and brood over a dead universe.
No, she's someone who adored living and living in excess so much she refused to let death be the end of her party days. She's someone who pushes you to live life to the fullest and then claw your way back afterwards and keep going. Consumption to the point of vomiting is something she preaches, as is spreading disease, cannibalism, sex is a part of it but definitely not a major part.
Heck, her holy book is also a cannibalistic cookbook! That's just the kind of goddess she is.
Also, the fact she's so opposite what other undead and evil death deities are typically like, and yet is way too powerful for any of them to really challenge or usurp her, adds to her character. She's a bit basic true, she has no long term goals or long standing plans, has no aspirations to destroy Pharasma or anything, but really that's nice and refreshing; she came back to have a good time and that's all the motivation she needed to break reality asunder.
EDIT: I'll say she's often described as a hedonist, but really she's a libertine and that what makes her brand of seeking experiences particularly heinous.
Extremely interesting analysis IMO.
It made me realize that Urgathoa sounds like the incarnation of the original take on VtM's Sabbat.
I had trouble characterizing her before. This helps.
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I'll admit I find your stance interesting, especially since I personally consider Urgathoa to be the most interesting undead god I've really seen in TTRPGs. I can understand why becoming a Lich doesn't really fit with the majority of what she's about, but I love the idea that the ur-Undead...I mean, if you think the only kind of hedonism the goddess of gluttony might be associated with is a "sex thing", that's kind of something you brought to the table with you.
No doubt Urgathoa's got some sex things going on, but really it's the forbidden hungers generally pervasive among most kinds of undead which form the basis of her theming. She loved all the pleasures of life, not just the horny ones.
All I can say it that is the angle that has seemd most prominent in what I've RETAINED after having read, but that, really, the whole hedonism aspect is ITSELF rather problematic for the connotations the cncept presents.
(If you want to take a stance I am so fracking fed-up with sex and all its aspects being waved around throughout human culture and I am sick to the back teeth of it being everywhere; that would be probably fair, as on a bad day, I wouldn't find it at all concerning it some outside horror waved the entire concept of sexual reproduction and all its associated fallout away entirely. (I say "bad" day, like that's not a normal day; there are no good days, anymore.)
But, leaving that aside, even just taking the feasts et al at face value, Undead, again, are beyond having to NEED to deal with food (except for ghouls and vampires, basically) and I think it's just not an idea that I think fits well with the vast majority of undead.
But again, this discussion of it it arguably more thought than I previously gave it; which perhaps is more damning itself that Urugotha who should *side glance at avatar* have been a fairly easy sell to me, is just not interesting to me at best, and off-putting to me at worst.
Laid out like that... I point back to what I said about Cayden last page. I just don't find that sort of thing compelling or interesting (and in fact quite the opposite).
It is, frankly too human for my tastes. I would personally have preferre a undead god that was far more about the transhumanist elements than exaggerated human traits/failings, but I suspect... Like, I am going to be alone in that.
With most undead being evil/Unholy in the setting, I feel it would be awkward to have a major undead deity as the proponent of transhumanism.
Transhumanism doesn't have to be healthy. A lot of cyberpunk fiction deals with the implications of replacing your human parts with machines/genetic enhancement/uplift/etc.
Orcus could be interpreted this way due to his contempt for accidental undeath. Undeath is a path you should choose for yourself and for power. Cut out the weak parts of yourself and become something more.
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With most undead being evil/Unholy in the setting, I feel it would be awkward to have a major undead deity as the proponent of transhumanism.Transhumanism doesn't have to be healthy. A lot of cyberpunk fiction deals with the implications of replacing your human parts with machines/genetic enhancement/uplift/etc.
Orcus could be interpreted this way due to his contempt for accidental undeath. Undeath is a path you should choose for yourself and for power. Cut out the weak parts of yourself and become something more.
Transhumanism does not need to be heavily linked with undeath nor with evil/Unholy though.
Transhumanism does not need to be heavily linked with undeath nor with evil/Unholy though.With most undead being evil/Unholy in the setting, I feel it would be awkward to have a major undead deity as the proponent of transhumanism.Transhumanism doesn't have to be healthy. A lot of cyberpunk fiction deals with the implications of replacing your human parts with machines/genetic enhancement/uplift/etc.
Orcus could be interpreted this way due to his contempt for accidental undeath. Undeath is a path you should choose for yourself and for power. Cut out the weak parts of yourself and become something more.
Unless I missed something, I didn't think anyone was saying that it needs to be so much as it can be associated in that way. Horror is horror.
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If we're going to talk about transhumanism, we could be talking about automatons. Also grafts coming in HotW might be applicable. Poppets maybe at a stretch.
Undeath as transhumanity always struck me as a tale of the "obvious solution that has equally obvious drawbacks that proponents never mention until it's too late", more the sort of pyramid scheme recruitment vibe. To put it in context, a lot like the cybernetics owned by corporations even after theyre installed part of Cyberpunk that got washed away for the Cybernetics Eat Your Soul trope when it spread (which is also perhaps more appropriate for undead than it usually is).
Undead fit more as a tragic story mixed with a cautionary tale... but even then, not all Undead are created equal. If you manage to become a lich, the horror hunger isn't for flesh or blood, it's for knowledge, left ye fall into apathy and crumble to dust in torpor.
... although this may not be the right thread for the topic now that I look at the title again
Perhaps it merely speaks to Paizo and I fundementally disagree on Undead, since I don't see why Undead *have* to be equated to horror.
(Frankly, I think that's something living humans are better at, because they certainly horrify me...)
Which sort of says I was never going to be a fan of what route they choose for an undead goddess, since I fundementally don't gel with the starting premise.