Spell Guide for Pathfinder 2e: Feedback appreciated


Advice

Envoy's Alliance

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Hi everyone! I have created a spell guide at here.

I would appreciate any kind of feedback. I have completed working on cantrips. I intend to complete spells of all ranks and keep the guide up to date. You can post the comments here, or put a comment in the google doc.

Liberty's Edge

Great work. I haven't read it in detail yet, but I love the explicit Pros and Cons you put there. It provides awesome value.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber
Acid Blast wrote:
Does not have splash trait, so the flavor text is misleading and does not affect nearby enemies.

I don't see any justification for this assertion. What makes you think the lack of the Splash trait prevents splash damage from happening? AFAICT the Splash trait only applies to equipment.

Splash trait rules text: "When you use a thrown weapon with the splash trait, you don’t add your Strength modifier to the damage roll. If an attack with a splash weapon fails, succeeds, or critically succeeds, all creatures within 5 feet of the target (including the target) take the listed splash damage. On a failure (but not a critical failure), the target of the attack still takes the splash damage. Add splash damage together with the initial damage against the target before applying the target’s weaknesses or resistances. You don’t multiply splash damage on a critical hit."

There's nothing there referencing spells in any way, and the only things listed under the Splash trait on AoN are equipment (mostly bombs).

Envoy's Alliance

tiornys wrote:
Acid Blast wrote:
Does not have splash trait, so the flavor text is misleading and does not affect nearby enemies.

I don't see any justification for this assertion. What makes you think the lack of the Splash trait prevents splash damage from happening? AFAICT the Splash trait only applies to equipment.

Splash trait rules text: "When you use a thrown weapon with the splash trait, you don’t add your Strength modifier to the damage roll. If an attack with a splash weapon fails, succeeds, or critically succeeds, all creatures within 5 feet of the target (including the target) take the listed splash damage. On a failure (but not a critical failure), the target of the attack still takes the splash damage. Add splash damage together with the initial damage against the target before applying the target’s weaknesses or resistances. You don’t multiply splash damage on a critical hit."

There's nothing there referencing spells in any way, and the only things listed under the Splash trait on AoN are equipment (mostly bombs).

That's precisely my point. There are no rules for splash damage as such (correct me if I am wrong). The only time you deal damage to nearby enemies is if you use something with splash trait. The absence of rules on splash damage and the absence of splash trait indicate that the default rule should apply, which is that only the target takes damage.

Does that mean that splash damage does nothing for this spell? No. There are 15 monsters with weakness to splash damage (reference).


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Well... calling Scatter Scree a 5-star, while calling Electric Arc a 4-star is certainly an interesting take.

Also, one of the downsides you list for electric Arc - that damaging cantrips become obsolete - is only speaking to full casters (and I'm not sure about them). For wave casters and martials that dip archetypes or ancestries for cantrips, it's just not true. I could understand thinking of that as somewhat edge case, but you list Protect Companion as being 4-star in spite of it being far more niche... especially when the spell itself is basically a modified companion-only version of the Shield cantrip.

Your take on Acid Splash - that it isn't a weapon, and therefore we should ignore the sole provided (weapon-specific) definition of splash, assume that the term means little to nothing, and therefore conclude that the flavor text is incorrect? That's also an interesting take, and made more interesting by the fact that even with full-on bomblike splash damage, acid Splash isn't particularly impressive.

Envoy's Alliance

Sanityfaerie wrote:

Well... calling Scatter Scree a 5-star, while calling Electric Arc a 4-star is certainly an interesting take.

Also, one of the downsides you list for electric Arc - that damaging cantrips become obsolete - is only speaking to full casters (and I'm not sure about them). For wave casters and martials that dip archetypes or ancestries for cantrips, it's just not true. I could understand thinking of that as somewhat edge case, but you list Protect Companion as being 4-star in spite of it being far more niche... especially when the spell itself is basically a modified companion-only version of the Shield cantrip.

Your take on Acid Splash - that it isn't a weapon, and therefore we should ignore the sole provided (weapon-specific) definition of splash, assume that the term means little to nothing, and therefore conclude that the flavor text is incorrect? That's also an interesting take, and made more interesting by the fact that even with full-on bomblike splash damage, acid Splash isn't particularly impressive.

Cantrip damage doesn't become obsolete because of better options. It becomes obsolete because average enemy HP grows faster than cantrip damage. I realize that it's not an obvious fact and this is something that requires some statistics. I will try to put a detailed report on how cantrip damage scales relative to HP.

Maybe I am overvaluing Scatter Scree, but it seems to me that battlefield control can be really valuable. The difference b/w a high damaging cantrip and a low damage cantrip isn't that much, all things considered. Either way, martial damage is going to be more important. Making it so that martials have an easier time by battlefield control seems to me like a better strategy than trying to squeeze out every point of damage.

The thing about Acid Splash is that it lacks the Splash Trait. So, even though it does splash damage, nothing in the rules imply that the splash damage applies to nearby enemies.

Grand Archive

Aside from acid related needs, Acid Splash is a less than ideal choice. Anything that has a weakness to splash damage is also weak to aoe damage.

Dancing Lights requires sustaining.

Light scales like every other cantrip. As such, per RAW, it supercedes any magical darkness lower than its level. Enemy casts a 4th level darkness spell when you're 9th level? LOLZ! Joke's on you enemy! I defeat your 4th level spell with my cantrip!

Spout is an aoe spell even out of water. Aoe spells like Spout and Scatter Scree can trigger swarm and troop weaknesses. Also, such spells can be used to attack concealed or hidden enemies without regard for flat checks. I'd personally give it at least 3 stars.

Grand Archive

While Scatter Scree does produce difficult terrain, it is hardly a significant amount. I really don't think it is worthy of 5 stars.

Also, Electric Arc targets two targets who only need to be within 30ft of the caster, not each other. If augmented with reach spell, it goes to 60ft. The number of times I've cast Electric Arc at higher levels in a fight's clean-up phase is many.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber
Ghaar Drona wrote:

That's precisely my point. There are no rules for splash damage as such (correct me if I am wrong). The only time you deal damage to nearby enemies is if you use something with splash trait. The absence of rules on splash damage and the absence of splash trait indicate that the default rule should apply, which is that only the target takes damage.

Does that mean that splash damage does nothing for this spell? No. There are 15 monsters with weakness to splash damage (reference).

Ah, I see the argument now. I think with RAW in a kind of fuzzy mess of technicalities, RAI is clear enough here that it's worth you providing a separate rating for if the spell is assumed to splash onto neighboring creatures.

Beyond that, I agree with other posters that you're overvaluing Scatter Spree vs. Electric Arc; I could maybe be ok with them sharing the same rating but Scatter Scree is definitely not a full category above Electric Arc. Electric Arc is near guaranteed to target 2 enemies assuming 2+ enemies remaining in the encounter. Scatter Scree will only occasionally be able to target 2+ enemies, and similarly the difficult terrain will only occasionally be relevant. Scatter Scree's biggest draw for me is the one it shares with Spout: AoE damage gets around concealment and cover. This is good but I don't think it's good enough to beat Electric Arc's easy double targeting.

(In fact, for my Druid I recently dropped Scatter Scree from my preparations after picking up a Staff that gives me Spout; I wouldn't generally prep Spout over Scatter Scree unless expecting lots of water around, but in having it "for free" I now prioritize other cantrips that cover other niches over the rest of what Scatter Scree brings.)


tiornys wrote:

Scatter Scree's biggest draw for me is the one it shares with Spout: AoE damage gets around concealment and cover. This is good but I don't think it's good enough to beat Electric Arc's easy double targeting.

(In fact, for my Druid I recently dropped Scatter Scree from my preparations after picking up a Staff that gives me Spout; I wouldn't generally prep Spout over Scatter Scree unless expecting lots of water around, but in having it "for free" I now prioritize other cantrips that cover other niches over the rest of what Scatter Scree brings.)

Don't spout covers a single SQUARE unless you target a body of water ? so... always only one creature ?


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber
Lyra Elwind wrote:
Don't spout covers a single SQUARE unless you target a body of water ? so... always only one creature ?

1 square yes. Always only one creature, no--it's possible for multiple creatures to share a square. But under normal circumstances, yes, Spout is effectively single target without water around--but it's single target that bypasses cover and concealment thanks to being an area effect.

Envoy's Alliance

Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich wrote:

Aside from acid related needs, Acid Splash is a less than ideal choice. Anything that has a weakness to splash damage is also weak to aoe damage.

Dancing Lights requires sustaining.

Light scales like every other cantrip. As such, per RAW, it supercedes any magical darkness lower than its level. Enemy casts a 4th level darkness spell when you're 9th level? LOLZ! Joke's on you enemy! I defeat your 4th level spell with my cantrip!

Spout is an aoe spell even out of water. Aoe spells like Spout and Scatter Scree can trigger swarm and troop weaknesses. Also, such spells can be used to attack concealed or hidden enemies without regard for flat checks. I'd personally give it at least 3 stars.

Thank you for your comment!

A five foot cube is unlikely to cover multiple creatures, unless they are tiny. I see your point about weakness to area damage, but are they common enough to warrant special consideration? There are 77 monsters that are weak to area damage, which is about 0.3% of all monsters.

Envoy's Alliance

I appreciate everyone's comment about scatter scree, but I think you are ignoring the uses of difficult terrain. The idea is to combine it with other hazards and to create squares where the enemy doesn't want to go.

Say, you cast grease on top of scatter scree squares. This now allows you to create a 10 foot square corridor which the enemy wouldn't like to pass. Combine this with gale blast and you can create very effective battlefield controls.

I like Electric Arc, but I am skeptical that it is that good past level 8 or so. I am not sure whether that is worth 5 stars.


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Ghaar Drona wrote:
That's precisely my point. There are no rules for splash damage as such (correct me if I am wrong). The only time you deal damage to nearby enemies is if you use something with splash trait. The absence of rules on splash damage and the absence of splash trait indicate that the default rule should apply, which is that only the target takes damage.

The key to reading Acid splash is Corrosive Body, which says "You can cast acid splash as an innate spell; the splash damage affects all creatures within 15 feet instead of the normal 5 feet."

So yes Acid Splash really does splash.


Other people's opinions

Gortle’s Spell Guide for the Sorcerer (me)
PF2E Spells breakdown by Ruben "Hety" Arutyunyan
Encyclopaedia Arcanum: FedoraFerret’s Guide to Spells
Knights of the Last Call have a video series on youtube. Here is their public summary spreadsheet

Please continue with your efforts I enjoy reading them.


Spout's main disadvantage is that Scatter Scree is basically always better.

On Acid Splash - the damage is subpar, but it's not quite as bad as it might seem. It adds an average 4.5 damage every two spell levels (aside from 3rd, which probably adds 4 with caster stat), compared to normal cantrips adding 5. If it just started at 1d6+stat and heightened to add +1d6, +1 splash, +1 persistent, it would be good enough I think. Probably more 2/5 instead of a 1/5, really.

Envoy's Alliance

Gortle wrote:
Ghaar Drona wrote:
That's precisely my point. There are no rules for splash damage as such (correct me if I am wrong). The only time you deal damage to nearby enemies is if you use something with splash trait. The absence of rules on splash damage and the absence of splash trait indicate that the default rule should apply, which is that only the target takes damage.

The key to reading Acid splash is Corrosive Body, which says "You can cast acid splash as an innate spell; the splash damage affects all creatures within 15 feet instead of the normal 5 feet."

So yes Acid Splash really does splash.

Thank you for replying! I am a big fan of your guide and a big part of creating this guide is to do something similar but something that reflects my philosophy. I did not know about corrosive body. I still think it is poor editing to not be clear on the rules for splash damage, but this is somewhat more convincing.

Envoy's Alliance

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Spout's main disadvantage is that Scatter Scree is basically always better.

On Acid Splash - the damage is subpar, but it's not quite as bad as it might seem. It adds an average 4.5 damage every two spell levels (aside from 3rd, which probably adds 4 with caster stat), compared to normal cantrips adding 5. If it just started at 1d6+stat and heightened to add +1d6, +1 splash, +1 persistent, it would be good enough I think. Probably more 2/5 instead of a 1/5, really.

At some spell ranks your damage would be subpar, and at some spell ranks it would be OK. But I agree, 1/5 was too harsh.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber
Ghaar Drona wrote:

I appreciate everyone's comment about scatter scree, but I think you are ignoring the uses of difficult terrain. The idea is to combine it with other hazards and to create squares where the enemy doesn't want to go.

Say, you cast grease on top of scatter scree squares. This now allows you to create a 10 foot square corridor which the enemy wouldn't like to pass. Combine this with gale blast and you can create very effective battlefield controls.

I like Electric Arc, but I am skeptical that it is that good past level 8 or so. I am not sure whether that is worth 5 stars.

I'm fully aware of the value of difficult terrain and especially being able to place it anywhere I want (played more than one character with Mystical Debris in D&D 4E). The thing with ground-based difficult terrain is that it can be bypassed by bypassing the ground. You're worried about Electric Arc getting less good at higher level? I think at higher level almost nothing needs to care about a couple of squares of difficult terrain between fly speeds, climb speeds, teleports, ignoring that type of difficult terrain, air walk, sufficiently high burrow speeds, sufficiently high base speeds, or even just having a decent athletics check to be able to jump the squares which is trivial at higher levels.

@Dubious Scholar, agreed that Spout is just worse Scatter Scree unless adventuring around bodies of water and/or getting specific boosts to water effects.

Envoy's Alliance

tiornys wrote:
Ghaar Drona wrote:

I appreciate everyone's comment about scatter scree, but I think you are ignoring the uses of difficult terrain. The idea is to combine it with other hazards and to create squares where the enemy doesn't want to go.

Say, you cast grease on top of scatter scree squares. This now allows you to create a 10 foot square corridor which the enemy wouldn't like to pass. Combine this with gale blast and you can create very effective battlefield controls.

I like Electric Arc, but I am skeptical that it is that good past level 8 or so. I am not sure whether that is worth 5 stars.

I'm fully aware of the value of difficult terrain and especially being able to place it anywhere I want (played more than one character with Mystical Debris in D&D 4E). The thing with ground-based difficult terrain is that it can be bypassed by bypassing the ground. You're worried about Electric Arc getting less good at higher level? I think at higher level almost nothing needs to care about a couple of squares of difficult terrain between fly speeds, climb speeds, teleports, ignoring that type of difficult terrain, air walk, sufficiently high burrow speeds, sufficiently high base speeds, or even just having a decent athletics check to be able to jump the squares which is trivial at higher levels.

@Dubious Scholar, agreed that Spout is just worse Scatter Scree unless adventuring around bodies of water and/or getting specific boosts to water effects.

I did not consider scaling as much. I think you have changed my mind about it.

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