Build Help Warlock Vigilante

[Josep.GM]

Hi Everyone,

We are a group (5 players) that is playing their 3rd adventure: Shattered star. The first one was Rise of the Runelords and the second one was Skulls and Shackles (this one ended earlier as not all members of the group were enjoying the Adventure Path).

We are currently at book 2 of Shattered Star, and i am making my third character, as my first one (A fire Kineticist) died once and after book 1 i got tired of fire immunity (i know it's my fault for going fire). My second character was a protective luck - soothsayer focused witch who died 3 times in between starting book 2 and the encounter with the magus dhampir at ladys light.

So here i am, trying another type of character, and this is what i have thought. The character enters at level 7, but i made the build until late to figure out if i can add anything better o replace something with optimal options.

Human Warlock Vigilante

STATS

STR 11, DEX 20 (17+2 racial +1 at level 4), CON 14, INT 18 (15+ 2 Headband +1 for the artifact encountered at first level of the dungeon), WIS 13, CHAR 13.

I got a lucky one with the dice this time.

Traits & Drawbacks:
T1: Eyes and Ears of the City (so i can recover Perception as class skill)
T2: Fate's favored (I'm planning at overexploit Divine Favor via UMD)
T3: Pragmatic activator (as the previous said).
T4: Serpents Runner (I read this one and was not sure if you had to wield 2 DIFFERENT weapons on each hand, but, our current Brawler and our dead Rogue have been using this trait to benefit from reducing the penalty on unarmed attacks and TWF with 2 daggers, so our DM's ok with this

D1: Forgetful
D2: Naive

Feats:
Human: Point Blank Shot
1: Two Weapon Fighting
3: Precise Shot
5: Rapid Shot
7: Posessed Hand
----- For the future ----
9: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
11: Clustered Shots
13: Quick Draw
15: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
17: ?¿?

VIGILANTE THINGS

Social talents
1. Transformation Sequence
3. Renown
5. Celebrity Discount
7. Quick Change
9. Social Grace Spellcraft (retroactively Intimidate and maybe Appraise? not sure of this).
11. Great Renown
13. Immediate Change and Sense Motive social grace
15. ?¿?
17. ¿?? and Social grace ¿?

Vigilante talents
2. Arcane Striker
6. Tattoo Chamber, so i can keep wands at safe
12. Returning weapon

SPELLS
0. Breeze, Dancing lights, Detect Magic, Prestidigitation, Detect Fiendish presence
1. Mage Armour, Vanish, Liberation Command, Heightened Awareness x2
2. False Life, Mirror Image, See Invisible, Visualization of the Mind( i know i have to pay, but man, this spell seems like really worth paying for it).
3. Darkvision Communal, Magic Circle against Evil

Other active magic intentions:
- Divine Favor Wand,
- Shield wand
- Heroism wand (only got 10 charges of this one).

Other items I carry
- Masterwork Composite Longbow
- Durable arrows, with 5 of adamantine, 5 of cold iron and 5 silver

What i'm planning to do

The reason of the chosing of spells is trying to have as much long duration spells as posible so i can be the second fount of skills of the group (the party now has changed to Brawler, Cleric (Blossoming light), Samurai, Bard and Vigilante-Warlock)

So as this is our first really long dungeons adventure, we have been experiencing issues with the resources (like trying to save as much as possible, and ending in a room with no buffs vs a group of enemies, but also, using powerful buffs before a room and failing because there were no enemies at that room)

As i said, i plan to be the second fount of skills, as we have a bard, and he will always be the first one (he's also carrying the fragment that gives you +2 to skills). With Heightened awareness and visualization of the mind i have good knowledges and spellcraft bonus [spoiler= Arcana 19, Engineering 13, Local 14, Other knowledges 10, Spellcraft 16, Perception 14, UMD 19 (as Pragmatic activator transforms UMD into INT, qualifies to Visualization of the Mind [/spoiler]

For the battle, i'm plannning 2 scenarios at this levels:

1) The enemy is far away:Use the Bow.
With the feats and having Heroism (long-lasting) and Divine Favor (which, to be honest, i'm gonna UMD before entering any room)

This is 13/13, with 1d8+4 damage of each attack (2 of Divine Favor with the trait and 2 with arcane strike). Please, dont judge this as i'm not a ranger nor a fighter with a composite longbow build.

I'm thinking of carrying a wand of Gravity bow to increase the damage to 2d6 instead.

2) The enemy is close enough: Mystic Bolts

This is 13/13/11 (touch) for this level, consider haste for 14/14/14/12, with 1d6+7 on the main hand and 1d6+6 on the secondary hand (remember Possessed hand gets +1 attack and damage, and mystic bolts are light weapons).

My main enemy is elemental resistance, that's why i have chosen for now to go with acid and ice elements on mystic bolts. And that's one part of the reason of going clustered shots at 11, because my DM advice me to pick it (and even after i argued with him that i did not think that feat applied to energy resistance, from his point of view that feat applies to DR and energy resistance).

I'm focusing on getting Deliquescent Gloves and a tattoo of Demonic Smith gloves, so i can add more damage to mystic bolts (and to the arrows secondarily).

If you have come so far, you are thinking why would i pick returning weapon at level 12 of Vigilante.

The reason is, that at late game, elemental immunity is way more common, so i decided to battle that with Chakrams.

As i have access to Greater Magic Weapon, at level 14, if i have a +1 Adamantine Chakram (others enhancements can be good, like Seeking for example), and if i carry normal chakrams, the properties of the other normal chakrams mimic the magical one, so i can benefit with GMW, and other weapon enhancements and the gloves and spells aplied to the original one.

Thank you for reading this long post. I'm looking forward to comments and advices

[Trokarr]

I’m pretty sure that Deliquescent Gloves and the Demonic Smiths Gloves only apply to melee attacks as both state that they apply to melee touch attacks, attacks with a natural weapons, and to weapons that you wield. Once the Mystic Bolt leaves your hand you are no longer wielding it and therefore the damage from either set of gloves will not apply. As for the bow the same thing applies as you are not wielding an arrow that you have fired. Also I noticed that you don’t have Weapon Finesse. Is that intentional or do you not plan on using Mystic Bolts in melee?

[Dragonchess Player]

First, consider that despite sharing the name with the D&D 3.5 class the warlock archetype's mystic bolts are not really designed to be a primary attack option. The warlock vigilante is a +3/4 BAB 6-level caster with proficiency in all martial weapons. Mystic bolts are roughly on-par with cleric domain abilities, sorcerer bloodline powers, or wizard school powers; they exist to give the character "something magical" to do when not casting spells or a way to get around DR.

Second, instead of deliquescent gloves or demonic smith's gloves, you might want to look at gloves of arcane striking and the Arcane Strike feat to add splash damage to the mystic bolts.

[Josep.GM]

Hi, thanks for your replies.

1. First of all, about elemental gloves and weapons and melee

I think Mystic bolts can apply the gloves, as follows:

Deliquescent:
The wearer’s melee touch attacks with that hand deal 1d6 points of acid damage. If the wearer uses that hand to wield a weapon or make an attack with an unarmed strike or natural weapon, that attack gains the corrosive weapon special ability.
Deliquescent gloves.

Demonic Smith
Whenever the wearer makes a melee touch attack, she deals 1d6 points of fire damage. If the wearer wields a weapon or makes an attack with an unarmed strike, that attack gains the flaming weapon special ability.

Gloves, Demonic Smith's.

And for Mystic bolts
The warlock vigilante attacks with mystic bolts as though they were light one-handed weapons, and the bolts can be used for two-weapon fighting (with each hand creating one mystic bolt) and feats and abilities that apply to weapon attacks (unless they’re excluded from that feat, such as with Power Attack).

We have also this text a bit down,
Because mystic bolts are impermanent, a spell that targets a single weapon (like magic weapon) can’t affect it, nor can a mystic bolt be made with magic weapon special abilities. Abilities that affect all weapon attacks the warlock makes, such as the arcane striker warlock talent, function with mystic bolts.

Here is a thread with the same question - answers and even a guy with a PFS warlock vigilante and his experience.

For the gloves and ranged, at the description it is said that a weapon gets that ability, and for bows, crossbows and similar, whenever you enhance that weapon, the ammunition it fires applies that special ability.

Here is a thread that sums it up

But in essence, in both gloves says the same: the weapon gets either corrosive or flaming. I think the principle is the same as arcane strike states, which is an important part of this Archetype.

If you make a Frost Bow, the ammunition it fires, is also Frost. You can see here, in the table of +1 ranged enhancements, some of them have a superscript of 3, that references to that Projectile weapons with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition.

2.

I dont have finesse, and that is completely intended. I'm not a melee guy. Besides, I lose one attack if i have to go melee, maybe if i find myself too often i can think in something to resolve it.

3.
Yes, I know it is not the main primary attack option and that is why I have a bow and at late game, I plan to have the chakrams. And also the one of the reasons of doing this thread, as i'm searching options.

I'm not the primary DPS (nor secondary), and i'm problably not the primary caster.

Party:
- Brawler (tons of damage)
- Mounted Samurai with spear (tons of damage)
- Bard (tons of spells, skills, Face)
- Blossoming Light Cleric (9 level list with tons of healing, also face).

What i am trying to contribute:
- Other options of arcane spellcasting
- Ranged options
- Skills (as a second option after bard)

For the gloves of arcane striking, I will have to chose from 2 of all 3 gloves that have mentioned here. Maybe it is a good option considering iterative attacks, since my plan is go for 8 attacks at 16 level, and by that level arcane strike is 4 damage per hit.

Thanks

[Trokarr]

Ah I see the reasoning now. I rescind my opinion on their use with ranged attacks. Thanks for the links as well. This makes Mystic Bolts a bit more useful than I had previously thought.

[Temperans]

You want a Conductive Bow to add mystic strike to a ranged attack each turn.

If you are going for a bow user than returning vigilante talent would be bad. A better option would be Volatile Arrows (make you arrows explosive), Lethal Grace (weapon finesse), Signature ammo (massive discount on enchanted arrows), etc.

Since you are playing a class that naturally benefits from Arcane Strike, then Riving Strike would be useful (enemy takes -2 on saves).

Also I don't recommend going for second on skills vs the Bard. That class is designed to be good at knowledge skills so trying to be second to it might end with you physically playing second fiddle. (Not saying its bad, but that it might not feel good as you play it).

On that note, you are spending a lot of feats on getting extra hits at a penalty. That can end up backfiring if you are unable to actually hit. So do think about how to fix the current -4 to attacks if yoh decide to Two-Weapon Fight + Rapid Shot your Mystic Bolts. Its a lot of feats being spent not being good with either the bow or the Mystic Bolt.

* P.S. You can combine magic items by paying an extra 50%.

[Matthew Morris]

I suggest replacing Celebrity discount with Ancestral enlightenment. It makes you Bard-lite.

Also taking Arcane Striker as your 12th level Talent and Deliquescent gloves of arcane striking will be useful for ranged attacks, more than returning weapon. acid, burst, blinkback will help.

If you add Blinkback to your belt for 7500 GP, then you get the returning for free when you get quickdraw at 13th level.

[Josep.GM]

I'm considering the bow only for some levels, and only while the enemy is not at range for mystic bolts. And the reason of taking returning weapon is not only for the returning property, but for the level 14 passive, that states: If he chose a non-ammunition thrown weapon instead, he can apply the magical properties of the first weapon he throws in a round to any non-magical thrown weapons of that type he throws that round. This allows him to make a full attack with the benefits of his magical thrown weapon, even though it only returns next round.

If i go full Bow way, i probable may neef other feats tree, and my BAB, even with bonus may be no that high.

If i go thrown weapons way (chakram), i can find that the feats that are needed for Mystic Bolts, can be applied with chakrams.

Example:

At level 7 (currently) and assuming typical buffs

BOW (VS NORMAL AC)
5 (base)
5 (DEX)
2 (Heroism)
2 (Divine Favor, if i have time to)
-2 (rapid shot)
1 (PBS if applicable, probably not because if i'm using the bow, either the enemy is far away than 30ft or i know the enemy has high resistance or immunity to acid and frost which are my Mystic Bolts elements)
-----------
12/12 // 1d8+4 per hit
13/13/13 if haste (yay) //1d8+4 per hit

MYSTIC BOLT (VS TOUCH AC)
5 (base)
5 (DEX)
2 (Heroism)
2 (Divine Favor, if i have time to)
-2 (rapid shot)
-2 (TWF)
1 (posessed hand) (let's say is right hand)
1 (serpents Runner, not a real +1, it just reduces the penalty of TWF)
1 (PBS, applicable, because the range of Mystic Bolts is 30ft)
--------
13/13/13 // 1d6+7 with right hand, 2 times, 1d6+6 with left hand

14/14/14/14 if haste, same damage.

Going vs touch AC makes me feel that this attack is enough for this level, as by statistics, the touch AC tends to be low (mean of 12 for bestiary CR from 1 to 12)

At level 15, to take advantage of the feat tree i have been using, i can probably acquire a +1 Chakram (maybe a +2, dont know enhancement) and go for

CHAKRAM (Vs Normal AC)
11/6/1 (base)
7 (DEX, probably, considering right now i dont have a Belt yet)
2 (Heroism,
3 (Divine Favor, if i have time to, probably a higher caster level wand)
-2 (rapid shot)
-2 TWF tree
3 greater magic weapon
1 (posessed hand) (right hand)
1 (serpents Runner, not a real +1, it just reduces the penalty of TWF)
1 (PBS)
--------
25/25/25/20/20/15/15

26/26/26/26/20/20/15/15 if haste

with 1d8 + 3 DF + 3 Arcane strike + 1 Possessed hand in 5 of the attacks + 3 greater magic weapon + others (elemental gloves, weapons of awe, fiery runes).

The most powerful part of this is that, even with only 1 casting of Greater magic weapon, or fiery runes, or keen or something like that, on the main +1chakram, the other 7 gain those properties

At this level, probably the 15/15 are not gonna hit, but the 20s have their chance (having in mind that no bard spell buff nor inspire courage nor blessing of fervor has been considered).

BOW (VS NORMAL AC)
11/6/1 (base)
7 (DEX, probably, considering right now i dont have a Belt yet)
2 (Heroism,
3 (Divine Favor, if i have time to, probably a higher caster level wand)
-2 (rapid shot)
3 greater magic weapon
1 (PBS)
--------
25/25/20/15

1d8 + 3 DF + 3 Arcane strike+ 3 greater magic weapon + others (elemental gloves, weapons of awe, fiery runes).

In those terms, i feel that going for Normal AC in both cases, using the chakram is way more efficient than using the bow.

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Riving strike is pretty good, i put on the list, thanks.

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The reason i say second after bard is because the other players classes have not that much skill points nor INT bonus. If he manages to make me not using the skills, that will be ok (i was a half-elf investigator in skulls and shackles, which had A LOT in every skill, + 1d8+4, I've played that paper and i'm ready to let it go).
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The rule of combining items is no longer available at our table due to finding the rule of tattoos (same slot, double cost) and probably due to abuse in the past.
------------------------------------------

Ancestral Enlightment is really good, considering i have at least 1 rank in each Knowledge, but, as i said, not planning to take the role of the bard, as he probably will have a + 13 in each knowledge (5 ranks in each+3 class skill + 3 bardic knowlege + 2 heigtened awareness) which with a 10, is a total of 23.

Also, as this adventure path feels really slow, the progression of the discount and having a build that relies at low level wands, combined with a succesive streak of deaths at the party (our characters have died a total of 10 times since the beginning), and the lack of gold that the situation implies, made me consider that talent.

But i'm with you, Ancestral Enlightment is way better.

--------------------------------------------------------

[Trokarr]

This may not interest you but it is something I noticed that you might want to consider.
“Piercing Bolts (Ex): At 3rd level, the warlock CAN CHOOSE one mystic bolt per round to be a touch attack. This turns a melee mystic bolt into a melee touch attack or a ranged mystic bolt into a ranged touch attack. At 5th level, the warlock CAN treat all of her mystic bolts as touch attacks.”
So as worded making your Mystic Bolts as touch attacks is a choice only, not a requirement. If you choose to make them against normal AC instead you can apply the effects of Deadly Aim/Piranha Strike to your Mystic Bolts and up your base damage significantly. Not something you will probably want to do all the time but useful to take down low AC enemies (or ones whose touch AC and normal AC are the same like incorporeal creatures) more quickly. Deadly Aim will also be useful with your Chakrams as well.

[Chell Raighn]

As Temperans suggested, the Conductive weapon enchantment can be highly useful with your build… conductive chakrams would let you channel your mystic bolts into every attack starting at 5th. If you somehow got conductive chakrams before that then 1 attack per round can add your mystic bolt damage. You said you chose Acid and Electricity as your current elements, and you get a 3rd element at 13th… I’d recommend Ice since fire immunity is so common from what you’ve said… and from what little I’ve played of Shattered Star it was hinted at that devils and demons will play a big part, so fire and electricity immunities are the biggest problems going forwards… and some things may be immune or highly resistant to acid… but Cold is something you should find fairly reliable in that campaign… though the low damage of Mystic Bolts is easily shut down by a mere 5 resistance… (1d6+1/4Lv = 8.5 average at 20th)

[Matthew Morris]

Chell Raighn wrote:

As Temperans suggested, the Conductive weapon enchantment can be highly useful with your build… conductive chakrams would let you channel your mystic bolts into every attack starting at 5th.

Only caveat is they nerfed conductive to 1 attack a round IIRC.