This idea is a simple one:
A) Everyone gets 1 primary language at character creation, this language is "Expert" as you have full fluency. Ancestries may include an Ancestral Language at expert. Heritages may include cultural/regional languages as a dialect at "expert".
B) You can purchase additional languages as skills in character creation or through another method (spending skill increases, skill feats or general feats, archetype feats, intelligence ability increases, etc.) to become "Trained" in another language.
C) Language
*Trained- You can speak and read it, but haltingly and with an outsider's accents.
*Expert- You are fully fluent in the language, and rarely struggle to express yourself. Rarely at a loss for words.
*Mastery- You are an eloquent speaker/writer.
*Legendary- People who read your books are immersed in your prose and experience your scenes as if they were there.
this allows languages to be "learned" (*Something missing from Pathfinder rules).
This allows skill feats to apply to language, such as "assurance".
This can allow feats that benefit the lore skill to potentially apply to language use.
This adds an element of realism to the practice of linguistics,
you've all heard of the feat "Acrobatic performance"?
how about the feat, "literary performance"? eh? eh?
Fussings wrote: This idea is a simple one: languages as a skill, like a lore how about a "virtuosic Speaker" feat: You get a +1 on language based skill attempts.
For example, someone who has "Mastery" proficiency rank of a language who begins spewing vile curses and insults to demoralize, gets a +1 bonus on the Intimidation check.
You can already learn new languages. The multilingual feat lets you learn two new languages and can be taken multiple times.
Mellack wrote: You can already learn new languages. The multilingual feat lets you learn two new languages and can be taken multiple times. Yes, that is true. Good point. Well said. I can't argue when you present facts. I have to agree.
This is a new idea, a request/suggestion for Paizo. I still think it has merit as I have written it. Not everyone has the same proficiency with language, and this idea "Language as a skill" supports this. Further it has the potential to recognize those who strive to master language to communicate, through new skill feats for language.
Mellack wrote: You can already learn new languages. The multilingual feat lets you learn two new languages and can be taken multiple times. What if? Multi-lingual, provided a free skill increase: to become "Trained" in a language you do not know, or to increase your proficiency rank with a language that you do know?
eh? hmm, eh?
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I think languages are basically glossed over in the game to keep the story moving. I don't feel the granularity you are suggesting is needed. I am happy with a language just being known or not.
Mellack wrote: I think languages are basically glossed over in the game to keep the story moving. I don't feel the granularity you are suggesting is needed. I am happy with a language just being known or not. oh.
I still like my idea. I only know English as my primary tongue, I've learned smatterings of other languages, but not enough to say I have the equivalent of "Trained" proficiency.
Consider: Sometimes, a tourist does get lost.
Consider: some adventures can hang on the skill of the speakers involved.
Consider: Sometimes, Mars attacks.
Having that option to improve your proficiency with language is a "thing" and I think it would be beneficial to include it in the Game. The ability roll a skill check to "recall lore" of a specific lore skill (monster category, terrain type, profession) can also be applied to language.
While the society skill and the glean contents skill feat can do many things, language proficiency (the ability to express and communicate) can do many others.
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"The ability to express and communicate" is already covered by other skills such as diplomacy or performance. Language is just a tool for those skills. I think that is why it is a simple binary. Either you know the language, so can use your other skill, or you do not and can't.
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If you want to roleplay that level of specificity, ask your GM if you can take 'Lore: Linguistics'.
There doesn't need to be a whole new subset of rules when what you're asking for can be very simply accommodated using the current ruleset.
In my experience, this isn't an important facet of games I've played in. If you want to deep-dive linguistic skills, do it with Lore.
CrystalSeas wrote: If you want to roleplay that level of specificity, ask your GM if you can take 'Lore: Linguist'.
There doesn't need to be a whole new subset of rules when what you're asking for can be very simply accommodated using the current ruleset.
In my experience, this isn't an important facet of games I've played in. If you want to deep-dive linguistic skills, do it with Lore.
"Skills" are not a new subset. They're are already a part of the rules,
as is advancing skills. Treating Languages as something you can have varying degrees of proficiency with very much reflects on real life. Language fluency has sometimes been the very cornerstone of stories. Misunderstandings have lead to many disasters.
I can see a Lore: Culture(region) like so "Lore: culture(the shackles)"
Language as a skill, is not anthropology.
I believe that Language as a skill represents is the difficulty of learning, wielding, and ultimately mastering communication with another language.
If my Varisian summoner who speaks Common-Taldane,
takes part in the "Strength of thousands" campaign,
I can use the rules as they are and "poof" I have mastered Common-Mwangi. it feels kind of "push-button" and "automated". Like "NEO" having Martial arts downloaded into his brain.
With the idea of Language as a skill, my proficiency will have to grow through play. I don't just practice. I get to learn from my experiences trying to communicate in a foreign language more effectively.
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Right, but... representing something more accurately doesn't make it better, in the sense of resulting in more people enjoying the game more. In fact, I'd say that generally the closer languages get mechanically to how they work in real life, the less most people will like that system. Players generally don't like their Diplomacy-focused Bard getting a large penalty to all their talk because they're speaking a secondary language; coincidentally having the right language on somebody's list of secondary languages is normally a fun and enjoyable experience where one character is doing the talking and relaying things to the party. The easy approach of just taking the skill feat to know the language is what most folks are looking for.
If somebody wants to have a language be more limited, that can show in the roleplay easily- when my gnoll merchant speaks dwarven, I represent his lower familiarity by sticking exclusively to monosyllabic words. That's a fun little game in itself.
Plus, if you could take Additional Lore for another language after 7th level, it'd start at Master anyway, so you're still instantly mastering a language like Neo.
QuidEst wrote: Right, but... representing something more accurately doesn't make it better, in the sense of resulting in more people enjoying the game more. In fact, I'd say that generally the closer languages get mechanically to how they work in real life, the less most people will like that system. Players generally don't like their Diplomacy-focused Bard getting a large penalty to all their talk because they're speaking a secondary language; coincidentally having the right language on somebody's list of secondary languages is normally a fun and enjoyable experience where one character is doing the talking and relaying things to the party. The easy approach of just taking the skill feat to know the language is what most folks are looking for.
If somebody wants to have a language be more limited, that can show in the roleplay easily- when my gnoll merchant speaks dwarven, I represent his lower familiarity by sticking exclusively to monosyllabic words. That's a fun little game in itself.
Plus, if you could take Additional Lore for another language after 7th level, it'd start at Master anyway, so you're still instantly mastering a language like Neo.
good points, and rules insight. I can't argue.
(*I am leaving. good luck)
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