So I’ve been looking at the Kensai Magus lately and considering using it to make a Katana wielding spellblade type of character… but after really taking a hard look at what it trades out I’m left here trying to figure out how exactly this archetype is even meant to be functional…
Magus in general are martial spellcasters, weaving their spells into melee combat through the use of spellcombat and spellstrike. Sure a kensai can still do this, but the issue comes with the fact that they get 1 fewer spell slot per level, no spell recall, and no improved spell recall. Normally a magus’s limited daily spell’s isn’t a big issue since they can use spell recall to recover spells as a swift action and keep casting, so long as they have enough Arcane Pool Points left… and while that may not be the most optimal use of arcane pool, it is a very valuable option when you find yourself in situations where several combats will happen. I assume I should probably just take Wand Wielder and cast a persistent Weaponwand spell every morning so that I always have access to good spells for spellstrike?
Kensai’s lack of armor prof pushes it to be heavily Dex focused, and with Canny Defense a high Int is also recommended. This kinda shoehorns me into using only finesse weapons. Since trying to maintain a high Str alongside high Dex, Int, and Con is untenable, and if you’re going to have a high Dex anyways, you might as well use finesse weapons. Sure, an Effortless Lace can turn any one-handed weapon into a finesse weapon, but thats a fairly costly solution at early levels, and with the free exotic weapon proficiency, one that may be hard to pass up with weapons like the Katana being available to them. Am I just supposed to dump Strength, take Weapon Finesse, invest in an Effortless Lace, and enchant my weapon with Agile as soon as humanly possible?
From what I can tell, the archetype is heavily focused on AoOs, Crits, and acting early in Initiative… but its lack of armor prof and poor spell management seems to be extremely crippling to the class as a whole… is there something I’m missing here? Just how is this supposed to even function as a magus? From what I see, its a potentially heavy hitting melee combatant that is highly vulnerable in melee range and has minor spell-casting abilities…
Help me understand how this archetype is supposed to work… I really want to try and play one, but it just seems like it loses out on so much of what makes a magus a magus and gets so little in return…
I'm not really a fan of that archetype, but it seems to shift you to a more martial focus. You get free exotic proficiency and weapon focus, with staggered Intelligence to AC. I agree that its complete lack of armor pushes you towards a dexterity build, which is disappointing, because katana isn't normally a dexterity weapon, yet all of the flavor of the class is katana-based. While you probably could survive with a strength based Kensai, you'd have to use your precious few spells for defense, like mage armor and shield. At higher level, you can supplement the armor with magic items, like a wand of mage armor and eventually bracers of armor. And your staggered intelligence bonus to armor will eventually make up for the lack of actual armor.
An estoc is a decent weapon for a dex kensai, or an elven thornblade., not that the weapon choice is the biggest issue you have.
Weapon choice isn’t really a huge issue for me since 2500gp honestly isn't a terrible cost for access to a greater weapon selection… the armor issue hurts, but it does largely solve itself over time with high Dex and Int… though being limited to Mage Armor and Shield sucks… my group uses ABP so Bracers of Armor are out of the question, though out DMs do allow them to be taken for special abilities only… and due to the wording of Canny Defense, I cant even use a Haramaki or Mithral Buckler… even with Unhindering Shield i’d still lose my Int to AC with a buckler…
My main issue is spellcasting… diminished spellcasting and loss of spell recall is a huge impact on magus… Wand Wielder can atleast give me some spellstrike functionality that isn’t just Arcane Mark extra attack cheese (My DMs were not amused last time I ran that by them)… I suppose I could also take Close Range to allow Ray of Frost or Acid Splash too…
Pearls of power help a little, but the cost adds up. Maybe get scribe scroll and stock up on utility and out of combat spells that way? Leaving just your combat spells in your precious spell slots.
Edit: a wand of mage armor will help.
BTW, when I made my katana wielding magus, I went with a human strength build, using the Military Tradition alternate human ability to get the katana proficiency. I used the black blade archetype, but I feel that loses a little luster with ABP.
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Help me understand how this archetype is supposed to work… I really want to try and play one, but it just seems like it loses out on so much of what makes a magus a magus and gets so little in return…
You've got the gist of it.
The kensai is super-focused on doing a lot of damage with a particular weapon type, and doing it before the bad guy gets a chance to act. They give up some of their magical abilities to get to that niche. There are some really strong kensai builds, some really poor builds, and a lot that are pretty decent.
There's three common ways of building a kensai to not be a glass cannon.
1) Super-dexy. Most common, you saw this one right away. Use a finessable 18-20 weapon. Weapon Finesse, Piranha Strike, etc. The difference between a wakazashi (1d6) and katana (1d8) is only an average of one point of damage so you don't have to jump through hoops to try to get the most damaging weapon.
2) Spend money and feats to get armor. Not commonly done, because you need a lot of feats (armor proficiencies, arcane armor training) and mithral armor.
3) Spell combat a lot of defensive spells (blur, mirror image, etc.). You're usually going first so it's not hard to get them out. You can be a strength/mixed build much easier this way.
The important thing to remember is that while a base magus may be spellstriking an empowered shocking grasp every round, the kensai will mostly be using arcane mark and and defensive spells. But the kensai should be doing way more weapon damage, thanks to the feats and improved crits.
edit: It's also worth noting that by about 7th or 8th level, a kensai can have a fistful of pearls of power (1). 1000gp isn't peanuts but it's not that expensive either.
BTW, when I made my katana wielding magus, I went with a human strength build, using the Military Tradition alternate human ability to get the katana proficiency. I used the black blade archetype, but I feel that loses a little luster with ABP.
Why would you use Military Tradition to get the katana proficiency? Kensai automatically gets weapon proficiency with their chosen weapon. If your chosen weapon is Katana, then you have Exotic Weapon Proficiency Katana, which allows you to use the katana as both a one-handed and two-handed weapon.
I am actually heavily considering Bladebound with it… so I’d have to double check with my DMs about how to handle the enhancement bonus with ABP…
The way Kensai works is as a literal glass cannon. That can potentially become a dodge tank (very hard to actually hit).
Yes you are getting 1 less spell per spell level (6 spells total) and yes you lose spell recall (so can't regain lost spells), those things hurt. However, the benefit is being able to get an exotic weapon, weapon focus, int to AC (two stats to AC), fighter feats, and dealing maximum damage with attacks and crits. So the trade off ends up being more spells vs consistent high damage and access to fighter feats.
But the most important part is the combo potential:
* Inspired Blade Swashbuckler
* Aldori Dueling Blades
* Dex + Int + ??? triple stat to AC builds (Monk, Warrior Poet, etc)
* Fox Style builds
* Bladed Scarf builds
* 2-handed Magus builds (the exotic weapon does not have to be 1-handed)
* Strong level dip for lots of good stuff
* Weird flying sword wizard builds.
* Etc.
So a few things here…
1) Magus has Fighter Training standardly… Kensai just gives them a second version of Fighter Training 3 levels earlier that is improved but only works with their chosen weapon… I find it kind of odd that Kensai doesn’t trade out the original Fighter Training for anything though…2) Inspired Blade is nice in theory… but the restriction to Rapier only is very disappointing…
3) Aldori Dueling Blades have some interesting build potentials, and I can see some decent options there… but not really my thing…
4) Monk AC is… honestly not a half bad idea… High Wisdom would help a lot with perception checks… and High Charisma could make a few other things more viable… so either route with Monk has potential… but adding a 4th high stat into the mix is still tricky… though being 2 physical and 2 mental does make it more tenable than Str Dex Con Int is…
5) I’ll have to look into Fox Style when I have a chance…
6) I’ve actually already considered this… Kensai is good for Two-handed Magus… but it unfortunately still doesn’t change any of the restrictions on Spell Combat…
7) Kensai doesn’t really look like it’d be productive to dip out of… though if I were… I did look at Blade Adept Arcanist and Battle Host Occultist as a few strong contenders… I’d absolutely want atleast 7 levels for Broad Study with either of those though…
8) I did amuse myself with the possibility of a Universalist Wizard dip for Hand of the Apprentice once already…
My point was I didn’t use kensai. I wanted a katana wielding magus. In my opinion, kensai isn’t the best way to go about that.
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So I’ve been looking at the Kensai Magus lately and considering using it to make a Katana wielding spellblade type of character… but after really taking a hard look at what it trades out I’m left here trying to figure out how exactly this archetype is even meant to be functional…
Kensai is basically an archetype for high-level play. At low level, its bonuses are either marginal or easily duplicated by feats, and diminished spellcasting really hurts. At approx level 11 and up is where kensai really shines.
I'll add that for a Magus focused on greater trip, or on two-handed weapons, I would not use kensai as other archetypes do a better job. I also prefer the Flamboyant arcana over a swashbuckler dip, as my main goal would be the Parry & Riposte ability (this also means you aren't restricted to a rapier). On the other hand, kensai makes a good 2-level dip for other classes, as it basically gets you a free EWP, weapon focus, and TWF-like ability.
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As Voodist just reminded us in another thread, a single dip of warrior poet samurai could get you weapon finesse with katana. That dip also gets you charisma added to your unarmored AC, along with a couple other optional abilities.
The best way to play a Kensai Magus is to hyper focus on INT, even more than DEX. The Kensai Magus is unique in that boosting INT simultaneously increases all of your upsides AND mitigates your downsides. Bladebound works really well for this, because high INT mitigates those downsides as well, while the free scaling weapon means more money to spend boosting INT.
Focus on mobility spells and spells with multiple touch attacks though, since you lack the longevity of Spell Recalling Metamagic'd Shocking Grasps.
It’s too bad Eldritch Archer requires you to use a ranged weapon for spell combat, despite giving the choice between melee and ranged for Spellstrike. But I suppose that versatility is the province of the Myrmidarch.
So... If I'm understanding this right... basically when it comes to spells I'm supposed to load up on scrolls, buy Pearls of Power at every chance, use Wands with Wand Wielder, take Spell Scars arcana, and/or dump everything into Int to make the most of my spells per day... Oh and buy a Ring of Wizardry ASAP...
At half wealth by level for ABP... looks like at maybe level 10 or 11 spells won't be scarce anymore...
the campaign I'm planning to use this character in our DM is offering us VMC at no feat cost... so I'm thinking VMC Wizard so I can get the Staff-like Wand discovery, and fuel my spellstrike with caster with CL1 Shocking grasp wands using my full CL... and then I was thinking either Evocation Admixture or Divination as her arcane school... if I go with Bladebound Magus ontop of Kensai, then I'll need to talk to my DM about possibly permitting a bonded object instead of a familiar, one of our past DMs permitted it once for a past character (a bonded wand on an Eldritch Scoundrel Counterfeit Mage Rogue with VMC Aether Wizard was nice)...
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So... If I'm understanding this right... basically when it comes to spells I'm supposed to load up on scrolls, buy Pearls of Power at every chance, use Wands with Wand Wielder, take Spell Scars arcana, and/or dump everything into Int to make the most of my spells per day... Oh and buy a Ring of Wizardry ASAP...
Nah. You’re “supposed” to use less spells than a base magus.
If the loss of spellcasting is a huge deal for you, play the base magus. Every archetype has trade-offs.
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So... If I'm understanding this right... basically when it comes to spells I'm supposed to load up on scrolls, buy Pearls of Power at every chance, use Wands with Wand Wielder, take Spell Scars arcana, and/or dump everything into Int to make the most of my spells per day... Oh and buy a Ring of Wizardry ASAP...Nah. You’re “supposed” to use less spells than a base magus.
If the loss of spellcasting is a huge deal for you, play the base magus. Every archetype has trade-offs.
Honestly I don't really understand that decision. The whole point of magus is to blend spells and combat yet this archetype drops spells (as in drops some spells for less of them not drops the whole spellcasting ability) for as far as I can see the ability to use a katana and play a crit heavy build. Don't get me wrong I can see how it can be a powerful build if you know what your doing it just feels like it losing a bit of the flavour of the class.
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Honestly I don't really understand that decision. The whole point of magus is to blend spells and combat yet this archetype drops spells (as in drops some spells for less of them not drops the whole spellcasting ability) for as far as I can see the ability to use a katana and play a crit heavy build. Don't get me wrong I can see how it can be a powerful build if you know what your doing it just feels like it losing a bit of the flavour of the class.So... If I'm understanding this right... basically when it comes to spells I'm supposed to load up on scrolls, buy Pearls of Power at every chance, use Wands with Wand Wielder, take Spell Scars arcana, and/or dump everything into Int to make the most of my spells per day... Oh and buy a Ring of Wizardry ASAP...Nah. You’re “supposed” to use less spells than a base magus.
If the loss of spellcasting is a huge deal for you, play the base magus. Every archetype has trade-offs.
I'm asking this in a "gently probing" way. This isn't intended as a mean-spirited attack in any way.
There are fighter archetypes that give up armor training or weapon training (or both). Is that a loss of flavour? The carnivalist rogue sneak attack progression at half the rate of a base rogue. Does it give up some of the flavour of the class? A sensei monk can't make a flurry of blows. Is it a different flavour from the base monk?
I'd actually say "yes" to all of those. They do lose some of the flavor base class is known for. But that's the entire point of archetypes. They are designed to fill a different niche than the base class. As part of that design they gain some new abilities but have to give up some from the base class. In many ways the Kensai is one of the archetypes that hews closest to it's base. It keeps spellcasting, it keeps arcana, it keeps spell combat and spellstrike. It can't cast as many spells, that's the tradeoff.
I get that you want a full set of spells. But the diminished spellcasting - like that of the myrmidarch or kapenia dancer - is a reasonable tradeoff to keep much of the flavor of the magus while adding new abilities. Kensai isn't for someone who wants the normal magus spells per day. That's OK.
Magus has the design issue of not having a lot of abilities to trade away, without losing flavor or important capabilities. You don’t want to lose spellstrike. Arcane pool starts already small and then is important to later class features. There just aren’t any good options to take from, so some magus archetypes lower your spells per day.
By mid levels the armor isn’t as much of an issue. But you need to survive the early levels too, unless you are just starting high. And at low level the lack of armor really hurts.
Really, by mid levels the AC isn’t the main defense anyway. You can benefit from mirror image and blur.
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Given this has been raised from the dead. I'll just clarify to me this feels like its losing the feel of the magus because its given up spellcasting (both in fewer spells and suffering arcane failure in any armour) for skill with a sword. It just to me feels like an archetype that would be better a fighter variant gaining some spellcasting. I just feel like its fighter with some magic rather than someone seeking to master spell and sword.
What is a fighter going to give up to gain 6th level casting and still being a fighter? Giving up 1 spell per level does reduce the spell casting, but they are still 6th level casters that get their full level as casting level.
Since a magus is limited to light armor before 7th level tends to mean most of them are DEX based instead of STR based. Surviving low level with a low DEX is going to be extremely difficult. Being able to add INT to AC means the Kensai will have roughly the same AC as other magus, and often will end up higher than a STR based magus. By 12th level the Kensai should have about +12 to AC from his stats. If you are using ABP you still get the AC bonus. Clothes qualify for the AC bonus but are still not considered armor. This is how monks get the bonus and there is no reason a Kensai cannot do the same.
Let’s be careful to not confuse the diffrence between light armor and no armor. A finesse base magus is getting 2 to 4 extra armor over the kensai at early levels where that AC will be most needed.
The kensai loses the 1 spell per level but also loses spell recall. That combination leaves them with meaningfully less spells per day than the base magus through their entire career.
Actually it would be 1-3 points at first level and then goes down from there. The Kensai will have at least an 11 INT to start and probably a lot higher. Also the Kensai gets a dodge bonus which means it boost his touch AC as well as his normal AC. That makes the Kensai harder to hit with a lot of spells and when being attacked by incorporeal creatures. At higher level that will be very important.
I understand that the Kensai gets less spells, but that does not mean he is useless.
What Melkiador said... and I think it's fair to say that Perfect Strike and Superior Reflexes do not compensate for the loss of Spell Recall and Improved Spell Recall.
Perfect Strike requires a point of Arcane Pool per use, and does no more than maximize your weapon die. For a rapier, that's 2.5 points of damage on average. For an estoc, it's 3 points of damage. For a katana, it's 3.5 points of damage. Even on a critical hit, that's no better than, say, Pool Strike. It's certainly not better than knowing you can recall and cast another 1st level spell--especially if that's an Intensified Shocking Grasp.
Similarly, attacks of opportunity are situational enough that Superior Reflexes is probably best treated as a virtual feat, in lieu of Combat Reflexes. Would anyone trade Spell Recall, much less Improved Spell Recall, for Combat Reflexes?
From there, you have to ask yourself whether the rest of the package you get makes up for the loss of spellcasting. Unfortunately, the flavor the Kensai gets from its abilities is situational (surprise round actions or benefits) or borderline redundant (e.g., second instance of Fighter Training), without actually having anything to do with being a Magus. I often find myself wondering if it started its life as a Samurai archetype concept... or if it would have been better if it had received the Myrmidarch's Weapon Training feature.
I don't think the Kensai is useless, either. I agree with your conclusion... just more verbosely.
I tend to ignore titles for things like class and archetypes and focus on building the character. Some of the best rogue builds have no levels in rogue.
I think that's a really cool approach, Mysterious Stranger. In this case, however, I think the 2/3 spellcaster and medium progression BAB leaves the Kensai kind of stuck in no-man's land. That said, it does make me wonder what a Sword Saint or Warrior Poet Samurai might look like with VMC Magus--to supplement their classic swordfighting themes with Arcana.
Spellstrike probably ends up a wash for such a character, of course, unless a GM house-rules Wand Wielder otherwise AND said character can reliably generate Weaponwand.