I am working on a summoning build. I haven't tried this yet. It is just a mechancial concept at this stage. Thoughts?
Sorcerer Bloodline Phoenix
Starting ability scores:
STR 10 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 12 CHA 18
Background
Cultist, fascinated by fire but fleeing a goblin cult that wanted to purify everything with fire.
Ancestry Feats
Charhide Goblin
Burn it
Goblin Scuttle
Very Sneaky
Skittering Scuttle
Very Very Sneaky
General Feats
Armor Proficiency for a while then from level 10 Toughness
Fleet
Incredible Initiative
Canny Acumen
Feather Step
Skill Feats
Intimidating Glare
Battle Cry
Scare to Death
Bon Mot
Evangelize to debuff when I can’t demoralise anymore
Terrain Stalker underbrush
Foil Senses
Quiet Allies
Legendary Sneak
Skills
Intimidation, Diplomacy, Stealth, Nature, Occultism, Arcana, Religion
Ranking the first 3
Feats
2. Summoner Dedication for Psychopomp Eidolon
4. Primal Evolution for an extra top level summons
6. Basic Synergy for Meld into Eidolon so I can be Ostentatious whenever I want.
8. Crossblooded Evolution for another summon spell from another list. The best part is I can change which one every level if I want.
10. Bloodline Resistance a nice bit of extra defence that is always on.
12. Advanced Synergy for Ostentatious Arrival for bonus damage on every summon.
14. Advanced Synergy for Master Summoner for an extra top level summons
16. Effortless Concentration because actions are more important than spell slots
18. Greater Vital Evolution for an extra top level summons and one just below
20. Ruby Resurrection just because it is who we are
Note that this build has 3 extra top level spell slots, an extra slot one level down and we still have all our normal slots. Too bad for Spell Blending.
If you have Free Archetype then pick up Basic Summoner Spellcasting and a lot of summoner abilities.
Take the opportunity to get Bloodline Focus and Greater Crossblooded Evolution from the Sorcerer class.
Psychopomp Eidolon a Grim Reaper with black robes, a skull mask, a scythe, and flames
STR 12 DEX 16 CON 12 INT 14 WIS 12, CHA 10
The Eidolon might strike once or twice but its value is mostly dramatic and won’t stay out long. Out of combat it will assist with a few skill checks.
Equipment
Handwraps of Mighty Blows are useful as its runes will affect your Eidolon and you don’t have to waste time drawing it like you do any other weapon. Maybe at early levels you might use a sling occasionally.
Leather Armour then Bracers of Armor
Warding Statuette for Shield the level 7 one is good enough.
Bloodline Robe
Shadow Signet
A staff: Staff of Fire, Animal Staff or Staff of Healing are all good.
Bag of Holding
Insistent Door Knocker
Soaring Wings
Healer’s Gloves
Boots of Speed
Cat's Eye Elixir x 10
Elixir of Life
Spells listing Bloodline Spells first
Not quite right yet.
Cantrips : Detect Magic + Electric Arc, Ray of Frost, Guidance, Scatter Scree, Light
1st: Burning Hands + Lose the Path, Heal , Summon Animal, Gust of Wind
2nd: See Invisibility + Longstrider , Summon Fey, Obscuring Mist, Dispel Magic
3rd: Fireball + Wall of Thorns, Fear, Gasping Marsh, Animal Vision
4th: Remove Curse + Fire Shield, Summon Elemental, Air Walk
5th: Breath of Life + Acid Storm, Wall of Stone, Grisly Growths, Magnetic Repulsion, Synesthesia from Crossblooded Evolution
6th: Disintegrate + Chain Lightning, Scintillating Safeguard, Nature’s Reprisal, Slow
7th: Contingency + Energy Aegis, Frigid Flurry, Haste
8th: Moment of Renewal + Horrid Wilting, Burning Blossoms, Deluge, Stoneskin
9th: Meteor Swarm + Implosion, Banishment
10th: Summon Kaiju
Signature Spells
Heal, Dispel Magic , Summon Animal, Summon Fey, Summon Elemental, Scorching Ray, Fireball, Chain Lightning, Summon Giant, Acid Storm
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Thanks.
I had seen Thoughtform Summoning. It is a nice boost for sure. The extra defence is handy. They have a bucket of hit points and will be criticalled a lot - but not key as I want my summons to be targeted. Being able to move through enemies will help with repositioning. I do like that Thought form gives me a roleplaying out on the ickiness of undead though.
I'm happy to sacrifice my level 10 feat but not Crossblooded Evolution or otherwise delay the rest of the build for it. So for me it would remain a free archetype option.
Reanimator. I did misss that. That is a nice in built bonus for summoning. To me the problem is the mostly intact remains of an appropriate type of dead creature. One of the key things is being able to get a range of creatures. Looking at the description of the creatures used in animate dead (id is 666 that must have been deliberate) much of it is very specific. A generic humanoid body is only going to get the necromancer a few limited options. So this necromancer is going to have to cart around a dead body or two. So Floating Disk would get me only a small creature. I guess I would need some sort of Animate Object ritual on a small cart to carry the bodies around. Hmm. Really looking like a different but similiar build.
I see that you have a load of evocation spells ( metor swar, chain lightning, fireball, acid storm, etc... ). Are you going to alternate blasting with summons? or maybe just saving the top lvl slots for summons and the top lvl -1 for blasting?
Mostly yes. Blasting is a fairly reliable plan B. As a sorcerer with a few signature spells I can just dump my entire repertoire through it if needed - and you wouldn't know he wasn't a purpose built blaster. But also once I have spend a round with a summons, then a debuf (demoralise, fear, Synesthesia), round 3 is almost always going to be direct damage time.
I like it!
I played a Goblin Wizard in EC that mainly summoned. He was an Universalist. With the Arcane Bond, it was plenty of slots for relevant summons.
Having Effortless Concentration was great! Two dragons at the same time at Round 2 was fun. They buffed each other with Mirror Image and tanked...lol.
Seems like it’ll run like a dream to me.
Although I do have to wonder if you couldn’t just do the same thing but picking control options and end up making a better character.
What I’ve read of summons so far has felt very underwhelming.
I'm not sure that is true.
If you look at the chart summons are at best 4 levels below your level from character level 7 and up. That means a relative penalty of around 6 in to hit, spell DCs, saving throws and AC. It is terrible. If you are fighting higher level enemies then it is worse and you are probably looking at a penalty of around 8 for level plus 2 enemies. Those are the important fights that it is hard to win and that combined with the fact that summoning spells are all 3 actions is the reason why most people agree the summoning in PF2 is just not viable.
But when you look at the actual numbers they aren’t as bad as all that seems. I’ll be talking about spell level 4 and up as the numbers have settled down by then - they are better earlier. The typical attack bonus of a summoned creature means they need to roll a 13+ on a d20 to hit. That is not great but OK. The typical athletics skill means they need an 8+ on a d20 to grapple or trip. That is useful. I think it is because you of course are summoning the best options so the level difference is not as much as it seems.
Example here are the options I chose for Summon Animal.
Summon Animal looks pretty strong all the way. Here are my selections based on attack and grapple value.
1 Common Eurypterid, Flash Beetle dazzle effect, Guard Dog, Skunk has a useful sickening ability but it is tiny
2 Giant Frog toughest and a good at grabbing, Giant Skunk does what a skunk does, Wolf best hit chance and knockdown,Hyena for repositioning enemies
3 Giant Toad, Cave Fisher a nice ranged attack and pull
4 Dire Wolf, Giant Mantis,
5 Giant Hermit Crab, Giant Frilled Lizard, Emperor Cobra
6 Stegosaurus, if you need to fy Quetzalcoatlus
7 Giant Snapping Turtle, Titan Centipede, Mastodon, Roc our highest level flyer we can take
8 Deadly Mantis
9 Purple Worm
10 Black Scorpion
Think about how the summoned creature does against a creature 2 further down this list. Now give them flanking. They have a decent chance to hit, grapple or trip. Yes they are weaker and they will hit back hard. But they can take a few hits (not level 1).
When you realise that the caster can do other things as well, if the summoned creature soaks up attacks and provides flanking or grappling for 2 turns it has done a good job.
A summoner with Ostentatious Arrival is doing modest additional damage output to enemies of its level. That helps to close the gap.
So what benefits do you get from summons?
1) Almost endless utility. A full array of senses, a full array of immunities, movement powers, a lot of utility magic. Nobody beats a summoner for versatility.
2) Flanking. It arrives where it is needed. It should always be in the spot which helps you most. Its life is not important. It also really wants the modifier.
3) Hit point sponge. If you put it where it is effective. Then the enemy is likely to spend actions attacking it. The higher level creatures have a lot of hitpoints. Even when they get critically hit often (BTW immunity to critical hits is something you can summon) they still take quite a few attacks to take out.
4) A creature who is happy to go first. Trap and ambush detection. Check to see if an enemy has an Attack of Opportunity? We have a volunteer.
5) A living wall. Plenty of larger sizes. Your party can move through allied spaces, enemies can’t. The creatures can be large enough to block corridors and rooms. They certainly can give you cover bonuses. Curiously tiny creatures can share a space. So a Sprite Summoner could hide and have standard cover underneath the feet of the Ogre it summoned to fight.
What are the problems?
High level, high mobility enemies, with long ranged attacks. There aren’t that many of these. All the Giants have good ranged attacks if you have a few rocks. The Dragons have good top end flyers, but Animals are fine right up to the Roc (level 7 spell)
No room to summon. It is a common problem in certain types on dungeon. But there are smaller creatures available especially outside Summon Animal. Try Summon Fey.
A GM who ignores your summons. As a general case they shouldn’t do this, but some GMs are very aggressive and tactical. They also may feel it is the right approach for an intelligent opponent. Do your best to put the summoned creature in the most inconvenient place. Think about grapple and swallow whole options. Worse case you are a full caster and have other spells.
How do you use summons well?
They need modifiers to be more effective for damage output. So if you have an Inspiring Bard, Inspiring Marshal or a Bless user in your party that really helps. You can’t really do it yourself because of the action costs. If you have a debuffer who can give penalties to your enemies, such as these 3 conditions Sickened, Frightened, Clumsy which all affect AC at least. This is something that you can do in class as a sorcerer. These are good tactics anyway but when you have more minions around you get better value for them.
I think you’ve convinced me, seems like a really fun character. Although due to the obvious pit falls, I don’t think I’d like to play one as a prepared caster. Sorcerer definitely seems like a better shout.
Being able to flex to a signature blast or a more generally useful control spell when summons won’t work (due to range or confinement on the battle field for example) seems like an occasion that’s liable to rise a fair amount, would be annoying to have a lot of prepped slots given over to it.
I have played 2 conjurer Wizards, both of whom did a fair bit of summoning. I probably only ever used my focus power in encounters about 50% of the time, but I used it a lot summoning creatures and using those creatures to scout. That +1 often meant that a decent level animal scouting out the next room had a better perception skill than my wizard and if it triggered encounters, great! I had a prebuffed summon already out. If only lasts another 3 to 4 rounds, that is usually fine.
Maybe it needs to be its own separate thread, but I think it is very common for folks to underestimate the tactical advantage of numbers in PF2. One of the subtler game design elements that really impresses me is how well creature modifiers are balanced in relationship to expected numbers you will be fighting, and how that can really balance encounters even beyond combat encounters. Like hiding from 4 level -2 creatures is easy for your own turn, but as soon as they start seeking you out, with three actions and lots of rolls, you are going to end up in trouble if you are not doing everything you can to prevent them from knowing where to look and possibly using resources to misdirect their attention.
The same is pretty true in combat. If you end up facing 4 creatures on your own, their accuracy catches up to yours just with placement. Any kind of debuff to you or group buff to them will put them ahead of you on accuracy very quickly. I think summons in PF2 are pretty well balanced to be both a limited boost of actions and bodies on the field, without completely blowing up what actions and troop numbers mean in a game with the 4 degrees of success/+10 crit system, and the 3 action economy. I think they look lackluster when you first see them, and their are tactical foils to summoning that players can run into (like creatures with harmful auras that take no resource use for an enemy and summons have a good chance of critically failing), but in play, I see players use summons a lot. I wouldn't say summons are always the best spell to cast and sometimes they end up disappointing, but that is a feature of PF2: There is no thing to do that never ends up disappointing with bad die rolls, or a mistaken perception of the situation. Even magic missile can end up having good and bad castings based on the amount of HP a creature can have in relationship to its defenses, and rolling a bunch of ones on the damage die.
I found summons more useful at lower level than higher level. I was using a sorcerer for the summoning.
A few key fights were positively impacted by the summons:
1. A mudwretch managed to land a grapple on a powerful creature giving flat-footed to everyone. That was nice.
2. We needed a flanker in a room we couldn't get into, so an earth elemental with earth glide was summoned to go through the wall and set up as a flanker. That worked out well.
Summons with helpful utility are some of the best uses of summons. Damage not great, but sometimes they have some nice special abilities or mobility that can be helpful like flanking in three dimensions or scouting areas not easy to get into.