There are so many class options that I don't know which ones to choose for fear of making a mistep.
Going to be starting Kingmaker soon alongside a champion, druid (wildshape martial focus), swashbuckler, and wizard.
What might you recommend for such a party composition within the Kingmaker adventure path?
As in what sorts of things should you take on a thaumaturge? No harm in going right up the usual fake-champion route with weapon (flickmace) and tome or sleepwalker for better skill coverage. It's kingmaker, so you'll get extra mileage out of feats like sympathetic vulnerabilities and share weakness.
As in what sorts of things should you take on a thaumaturge? No harm in going right up the usual fake-champion route with weapon (flickmace) and tome or sleepwalker for better skill coverage. It's kingmaker, so you'll get extra mileage out of feats like sympathetic vulnerabilities and share weakness.
Setting aside Kingmaker, what is your go to Thaumaturge build? I am working on a free archetype build which has access to the asp coil. I know you like the champion and sentinel archetypes, and I found myself drifting in that direction.
Also, what are your go-to tome skills? I was thinking deception for one since I don't like any of its skill feats, but nothing super popped for the second skill.
Setting aside Kingmaker, what is your go to Thaumaturge build? I am working on a free archetype build which has access to the asp coil. I know you like the champion and sentinel archetypes, and I found myself drifting in that direction...Hmmm....
Yeah, well, it didn't look like he could receive messages, so this felt less obnoxious than making a whole new thread addressed to one person.
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I guess past me must have disabled it at some point, or never enabled it.
Generally, I very much enjoy jamming champion onto anything that can reasonably accommodate it. Lay on hands and champ reaction is just a strong set of features to staple onto anything with bonus plate AC to boot. Fighter, barbarian, thaumaturge, if it's going melee and isn't finesse locked its a good candidate for the champion archetype.
Under free archetype, something like
1) diverse lore
2) champion dedication, scroll thaumaturgy
4) healing touch, breached defenses
6) champion reaction, sleepwalker dedication
8) vision of foresight, sympathetic vulnerability
10) waking dream, sentinel dedication
12) mighty bulwark, scroll esoterica
14) psychic dedication, esoteric reflexes
16) basic casting, elaborate scroll
18) expert casting, grand scroll
20) master casting, wonder worker
Scaling plate AC, sustain between LoH and champ's damage mitigation, super bulwark, 3 focus points, advantage on non-combat skill checks, and really ramping up magic access in the back half. Should be able to slot well into any given party.
Tome skills can be anything really. Tailor them to filling in gaps in your party's skill coverage.
What about ancestry? I know you default to ancient elf but that's effectively banned from free archetype. I'm thinking half elf so I can squeeze natural ambition in there and get dark vision. I think half elf can get ageless patience now.
The one thing I really want to add is Know-It-all because my GM is a bit stingy with the knowledge checks (well, mostly just runs it completely RAW with increasing DCs on multiple attempts) and I like knowing more about what I'm fighting.
Skill feats, I'm finding myself gravitating to the same things as my last face: intimidating prowess, battle cry, shameless requests. Unmistakable Lore being the only stand out. I also like Psychometric Resonance for flavor.
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Half-elf would be my choice. With natural ambition you can move the scroll feat to it and replace it with whatever you want. Esoteric warden would probably be my default, but talisman esoterica has some use pre-spellhearts and maybe you stick with armor talismans instead of shelling out the extra cash for an armor spellheart anyway.
Fitting know-it-all in shouldn't be too bad. Move sympathetic vulnerabilities to 6, take know-it-all at 8. Move sentinel to 8 and mighty bulwark to 10. Move sleepwalker to 10 as well and vision of foresight to 12. Psychic dedication at 13 with multitalented and either waking dream at 14 for the 3rd focus point or go right into the casting feats and take ever dreaming at 18 or 20 instead for permanent skill advantage.
What do you like as a third implement? Obviously Tome is 1st, and I guess weapon is second. Feels like Lantern for passive stuff is ok. Does the lantern still work hanging on your belt? Seems like it should, but I'd prefer to avoid the annoying "passive benefits don't let you swap implements" malarkey.
Also, what do you generally favor for Intensify, Weapon or Tome? I imagine if my party has courageous anthem or something Tome is the clear winner, but I'm not sure which is better in a vacuum.
For the third implement, amulet. You have an extra reaction thanks to esoteric reflexes so an option to use it outside of the weapon reaction is good to have. Pretty sure all implements require being held for their special effects though.
If you have the action to spare for intensify, tome is probably the better option most of the time, even before considering existing status sources.
W Feels like Lantern for passive stuff is ok. Does the lantern still work hanging on your belt? Seems like it should, but I'd prefer to avoid the annoying "passive benefits don't let you swap implements" malarkey.
First sentence of initiate benefit: "While you hold your lantern..."
First sentence of adept benefit: "In addition to the initiate benefits, when you hold your lantern..."
Hmmm. Is there any action associated with the lantern besides Intensify? And does the book's free action RK trigger if you swap to your book at the beginning of your turn?
Hmmm. Is there any action associated with the lantern besides Intensify? And does the book's free action RK trigger if you swap to your book at the beginning of your turn?
No, lantern doesn't have any actions other than intensify (which doesn't do much and generally isn't worth the action).
No: "While holding your tome, at the start of your turn each round, attempt a check to Recall Knowledge..." You need to already have the tome in hand when your turn starts to get the RK check. (Technically it doesn't actually say it's a free action, so it's either missing the text saying it is, or it's missing the text making the RK knowledge an option rather than mandatory. Lacking errata, people aware of the issue seem to treat it as a free action.)
Does making a strike with a weapon implement (not an Implement Interruption) count as an action? Wondering if you can cycle it back in whenever you want, which would be nice.
The conventional wisdom I've seen is that the associated actions refer specifically to the action given to you by the implement, so weapon/bell/amulet only swap with their reactions (which is technically maybe not legal because of free action rules but something I see most people treat as an editing mistake not a rules limitation). It does make swapping into passive implements kind of awkward (though less awkward with the remaster swap action).
There's been no dev clarity either way on implement swapping, though.
Yeah, been toying around with the martial idea as well. I dig it, though it feels weaker. Also trying to figure out a good chalice build because booze hounds are always fun to roleplay.
I really wish there was a way to stack Lantern and Tome for knowledge check purposes, since they give different bonuses, but I haven't found one. Maybe a bite build so you can keep both hands occupied? Or an unarmed stance that uses kicks like Dragon?
I finished Marshal (diplomacy) at lvl 6 and added psychic for my tome/weapon thaumaturge. Enjoyed the added mobility tremendously.
Activating the stance is difficult with the strained action enonomy, but really worth it against stronger enemies.
Did you find weapon implement worth it when Marshall gives you AoO?
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Did you find weapon implement worth it when Marshall gives you AoO?
I expected more. Having to exploit the target before gaining the reaction is difficult in fights with multiple weaker enemies, and having concentrate trait as a trigger is difficult to know without asking the DM every time - manipulate and move are easier from an onlooker perspective.
I am considering to retrain, now that i have reached lvl 8, but probably won't get the neccessary downtime (1 month?).
I'm really coming around to "Regalia can be just about anything, including weapons" camp." It felt cheesy at first glance, but I legit don't know how you're supposed to use Regalia with any other implement save weapon without it.
Toying around with a Regalia Marshall build. Attack of Opportunity frees me up from the weapon implement. I like the idea of Mirror as my second implement as it lets me generate auras from two separate points, though at that point you could maybe just go bard for a bigger base aura. I like Liberating Step as a reaction for maximum tactical mobility. Guy would be an old military commander type. Feels like a dwarf. Either the clan dagger or deity's weapon feel like feasible Regalia weapons. It feels like a step down from the time/weapon route, especially when our psychic and sniper may not be close enough to the action to benefit from bonuses... But I like the idea and want to make it work some day. Amulet felt like an appropriate choice for s military vet, but it just feels lackluster compared to champion reactions.
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Biggest point for the amulet in comparison with the champions reaction are:
- It also protects you
- The attacker does not have to be within 15ft
- Lingering resistance as an adept benefit (lvl 7)
Regalia would give some nice synergy with Marshal when trying to activate the stance as circumstance boni stack with item.
Currently (lvl 8) the DC is 24, i have a +18 (expert) with a +1 item, which means it succeeds 75% (5 or lower) - the +2 from regalia would improve that to 85% and master in diplomacy at lvl 9 to 95% aka only natural 1 would fail.
The rules regarding switching implements are still unclear, the rule text for second implement mentions actions and reactions which makes passive implements like regalia worse. Maybe it can just be simplified to "all at once"...
Regalia also provides a status bonus to damage which compliments Inspiring Marshall's status bonus to hit, and the Intensify effect can stack a circumstance bonus to hit for one ally. The status bonus against mental effects doesn't stack, sadly.
Technically, you can get a cheap circumstance bonus to the Diplomacy roll for Inspiring Marshall Stance with a jug of fond rememberence chalice implement, but the flavor just doesn't fit as well there.
Overall Tome feels like the best second implement to back up Regalia, as the extra skill proficiencies help you utilize your follow the expert bonuses and such. The adept benefit also applies a circumstance bonus to hit if you succeed on Recall Knowledge, which is groovy. The flavor doesn't mesh quite as well for an military commander as weapon or amulet though.
I'm really coming around to "Regalia can be just about anything, including weapons" camp." It felt cheesy at first glance, but I legit don't know how you're supposed to use Regalia with any other implement save weapon without it.
The same way you use a lantern or tome?
Yeah, those have the same problems of requiring actions to pull out again if your weapon isn't an implement and your second implement is ever actually used in combat.
Which is probably fine. Use mirror, wand, or chalice as a single action - get effect. Pull out tome, regalia, or lantern - restore effect, albeit one that has to wait for something else to happen to matter.