I agree that it isn't completely clear.
Ruling that you can't reload a combination weapon held in melee operation is on shaky ground though. It requires deciding that the weapon is no longer a ranged weapon at all rather than just that it can't be used as one while held that way. The Reload rules only require that the weapon be a weapon that has a reload value.
Also, it would make too many things about combination weapons not work well at all. Such as the Combination trait rule that you can fire the weapon after a successful melee strike without changing modes. After doing that it would take way too many actions to reload the weapon to make that tactic viable in most cases.
Ruling that you can't reload a combination weapon held in melee operation is on shaky ground though. It requires deciding that the weapon is no longer a ranged weapon at all rather than just that it can't be used as one while held that way. The Reload rules only require that the weapon be a weapon that has a reload value.
Not necessarily: it could just mean that the way you grip the weapon for melee interferes with reloading makes it physically impossible. Or it CAN be that; for instance a mizazuki requires it be locked into place to be used as a ranged weapon so when used as a staff, it just isn't a ranged weapon.
Also, it would make too many things about combination weapons not work well at all. Such as the Combination trait rule that you can fire the weapon after a successful melee strike without changing modes. After doing that it would take way too many actions to reload the weapon to make that tactic viable in most cases.
I agree it'd be messy, but somethings in the game are that.
I agree it'd be messy, but somethings in the game are that.
Sure. It is for each table to decide for themselves.
But if the GM is going to rule that it takes an entire turn of 3 action to switch to ranged mode, reload, and switch back to melee mode in order to use the Strike, Firearm Strike combination again then that is something that they should be up front about at session 0. Well before the player decides to play a Triggerbrand Gunslinger.
That ruling is in favor of a more flavor reason rather than a strict mechanical one. The new entry might be a little awkward but it wouldn't change the original intent behind combination weapons. The precedent of the Triggerbrand is simple enough.
It's not really just flavor as the descriptions are mechanics too: a chakri's reload 0 is in the same place, in the description. As to triggerbrand, I see the precedent differently. For instance, Slinger's Reload less you interact to switch modes and reload, meaning it'll be in ranged mode during the action you reload in [there isn't an order to when you switch vs reload]. Was there some other ability you where looking at?
You'd be hard pressed to find a GM willing to nerf combination weapons like that too.
LOL I look at it the other way: if I DON'T ask these things when I join games, I'll eventually meet that DM. I's why I argue a lot of these points as they exist and if you play enough different tables, I'll find them.
I agree it'd be messy, but somethings in the game are that.Sure. It is for each table to decide for themselves.
But if the GM is going to rule that it takes an entire turn of 3 action to switch to ranged mode, reload, and switch back to melee mode in order to use the Strike, Firearm Strike combination again then that is something that they should be up front about at session 0. Well before the player decides to play a Triggerbrand Gunslinger.
Oh, 100%.
Yes, touch and go is in that order but it says you switch modes and doesn't specify which mode you aught to be switching to, then you reload. So it functions with either mode.
It works with requiring you to be in ranged mode to reload. As one action you step -> CAN switch modes* -> reload: so if you have it in melee, you could switch to ranged and reload, meaning you go 3 actions for 1 action cost. Now if you already have it in ranged, you still step and reload, getting 2 actions for 1 action cost. Even if you step, switch to melee and be unable to reload but you still get 2 actions for 1 action cost. See, it works fine and gets you a boost of 2-3 actions even with requiring ranged to reload: it's why I don't see a precedent.
*"you can Interact to change your weapon between melee or ranged modes."
I really think if that was the idea, it would say specifically switch to ranged mode. Without a rule that states you cannot reload a combination weapon in melee mode, I have to assume this works with either mode.
IMO, it's an open unanswered question: For instance it says, "Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon." Great, but the issue is that it never says anything about the hand that's holding the weapon while you reload with the freed hand. You could argue that you can change your grip for the freed hand when you're done with reloading but the other hand doesn't move when reloading and it's in the position it was in for whatever mode the weapons started in. Can you reload a weapon you aren't holding correctly [ie, for wielding]? Who knows.
But it's basically all about there not being a clear rule for it, as
shroudb asked. It's a question that may never come up in a game but if someone asks, it's up to what feels right.
I'm not sure I follow that free hand example though. You can always hold a 2 handed weapon in one hand, you just can't wield it. There's nothing about "how you hold it" if it's in both hands, you're wielding it. Unless it's a jezail which needs a specific action to switch grips.
I've heard people say that since you regrip the weapon when reloading, you can regrip in a different mode: so for instance load it in ranged mode and put your hand back on it in melee. I was just pointing out that reload doesn't allow the holding hand to regrip as it's always holding the weapon.
I've heard people say that since you regrip the weapon when reloading, you can regrip in a different mode: so for instance load it in ranged mode and put your hand back on it in melee.
IMO the strangest part of that idea and logic is that it only seems to apply to 2-handed firearms. Because you couldn't switch to a free-hand grip of a 1-hand weapon, therefore you couldn't 'and then' regrip the weapon to wield it - you were already wielding the weapon the entire time.
So it only works with 2-handed combination weapons like a Gun Sword, not a 1-handed combination weapon like a Dagger Pistol.
Hadn't heard that before. Pretty much just the reverse of touch and go. I wouldn't say that interacts since it mostly invalidates the ability that is meant to accomplish the same thing but maybe that was before the Triggerbrand was printed.
I first heard about that glitch when the Fatal Aim weapons like Jezail came out. People would argue that you could switch the weapon from 1-hand wield to 2-hand wield as part of reloading.
From the look of things, that Fatal Aim rule has changed and now expressly prevents that. Not sure if that was from official errata, stealth errata, or if I am just mis-remembering things.
Yeah, I had to go look up the old threads about the topic. I think I am just remembering wrong and that text has always been there - at least as long as Fatal Aim has been.
It is just confusing how Fatal Aim could be read to allow regripping the weapon after reloading it in a different configuration from how you started before reloading it. But some people do.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hadn't heard that before. Pretty much just the reverse of touch and go. I wouldn't say that interacts since it mostly invalidates the ability that is meant to accomplish the same thing but maybe that was before the Triggerbrand was printed.I first heard about that glitch when the Fatal Aim weapons like Jezail came out. People would argue that you could switch the weapon from 1-hand wield to 2-hand wield as part of reloading.
From the look of things, that Fatal Aim rule has changed and now expressly prevents that. Not sure if that was from official errata, stealth errata, or if I am just mis-remembering things.
Fatal aim has always worked really strangely.
But I have seen 'reload and regrip' talked about in the context of crossbows, when discussing things like being able to drink potions or open doors or the general hand economy differences between bows and crossbows.