Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Has there been any clarification on how this works? Does a PC need to have EWP if they're only using it to grapple? And when using it, do you take a -2 penalty (both hands not empty -4, grapple bonus +2) or do they just get the +2 bonus?
You don't *need* Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use it to grapple, or to use them to attack for that matter. You can use a weapon that you're not proficient but you'll take a -4 to the attack or combat manuever's attack roll, and you'll still receive a +2 to the grapple attempt.
If you plan on doing this a lot, definitely get EWP, because that -4 is atrocious.
The TWF penalties only apply to attacks, not combat maneuvers. So you should be able to make your Grapple attempt with the Dan Bongs with no negatives from TWF penalties.
Ryze Kuja wrote: You don't *need* Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use it to grapple. You can use a weapon that you're not proficient but you'll take a -4 to the attack or combat manuever's attack roll, and you'll still receive a +2 to the grapple attempt.
If you plan on doing this a lot, definitely get EWP, because that -4 is atrocious.
... or have access to Monk weapons. As for clarity on holding it in your hands vs empty hands... I think you just get the +2. They attach to you by a chord on your thumb so you should be able to hold/release them as needed with no action in combat right? Or is it a move action to "adjust your grip?"
Mark Hoover 330 wrote: Ryze Kuja wrote: You don't *need* Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use it to grapple. You can use a weapon that you're not proficient but you'll take a -4 to the attack or combat manuever's attack roll, and you'll still receive a +2 to the grapple attempt.
If you plan on doing this a lot, definitely get EWP, because that -4 is atrocious.
... or have access to Monk weapons. As for clarity on holding it in your hands vs empty hands... I think you just get the +2. They attach to you by a chord on your thumb so you should be able to hold/release them as needed with no action in combat right? Or is it a move action to "adjust your grip?"
Yeah Dan Bongs have a cord that wraps around your hand, but when you perform the grapple, you manipulate the Dan Bong like a police officer's nightstick and drive it into pressure points in the neck and under-arm areas to make your victim more "compliant", shall we say :P
There has been no clarification afaik.
Dan Bong lacks the exception to the normal "hands free" grapple rule, like the Crook has, so RAW you'd take the penalty for a net -2.
My own interpretation is that the Dan Bong (and the Crook) are weapons you can grapple with as opposed to the grapple weapon special ability which triggers on a critical.
So you'd apply any weapon bonus/penalty (like nonproficiency), will not suffer from missing hands, and can use it to pin foes if you'd like.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Ryze Kuja wrote: You don't *need* Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use it to grapple, or to use them to attack for that matter. You can use a weapon that you're not proficient but you'll take a -4 to the attack or combat manuever's attack roll, and you'll still receive a +2 to the grapple attempt.
If you plan on doing this a lot, definitely get EWP, because that -4 is atrocious.
The TWF penalties only apply to attacks, not combat maneuvers. So you should be able to make your Grapple attempt with the Dan Bongs with no negatives from TWF penalties.
Grapple attempts require having both hands free. I don't care about TWF.
Thomas Keller wrote: Ryze Kuja wrote: You don't *need* Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use it to grapple, or to use them to attack for that matter. You can use a weapon that you're not proficient but you'll take a -4 to the attack or combat manuever's attack roll, and you'll still receive a +2 to the grapple attempt.
If you plan on doing this a lot, definitely get EWP, because that -4 is atrocious.
The TWF penalties only apply to attacks, not combat maneuvers. So you should be able to make your Grapple attempt with the Dan Bongs with no negatives from TWF penalties.
Grapple attempts require having both hands free. I don't care about TWF. Even though it doesn't explicitly say that you can ignore the -2 penalty for not having both hands free, it should be. Dan Bongs are meant to be used with grappling and act as an extension of your hand, and in fact amplify your ability to grapple someone.
I would talk to your GM and have him hand-waive this -2 penalty.
RAW:
Grappling without both hands free is a -4 penalty
" Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. "
The Dan Bong would give you a +2 (for a total of -2)
A weapon with the Grapple trait allows you to attempt a grapple check on a crit, but with all the normal penalties.
Want a good weapon to grapple with, as long as you want to go Exotic Weapon Proficiency? Look no further than the humble net.
Standard EWP lets you use a net to throw folded nets up to 10' and deliver Entangled if you hit a foe's Touch AC. Add in Equipment Trick (Net), Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple however and you unlock the following:
Net Tricks wrote: Grappling Net (Improved Grapple) When you attempt a grapple combat maneuver check against a foe entangled by a net whose trailing rope you control, you do not take a penalty on the grapple combat maneuver check for not having two hands free, and you gain a +4 bonus on the check. If you successfully pin the target while it is still entangled by the net, you can use the net to tie up the target as a swift action. So a PC with this feat gains a +4 vs their Entangled opponent, suffers no penalty to Grapple when both hands aren't free and their foe has an additional -2 penalty to CMD from the Entangled condition.
A build that takes advantage of this: Grippli C-Monk (Maneuver Master)
Str 12 (14 -2 Racial), Dex 18 (16 +2 Racial), Con 12, Int 10, Wis 16 (14 +2 Racial), Cha 8
Racial proficiency with nets
L1 Dodge
L1 Bonus Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple
L2 Retrain Dodge to Equipment Trick (Net)
L2 Bonus Dodge
At this point you've got a PC with a 10' Ranged Touch Net +6 to deliver Entangled. If this hits and the monk hasn't used a Move action yet, they can take a 5' step and Flurry of Maneuvers. They can then attempt a Grapple +8 against an Entangled foe with a -2 penalty to their CMD.
I'm sure there are other, better builds than this. Feel free to go nuts. I just figured the net was a way to skip the hands occupied grapple penalty with some decent utility.
There you go... it's certainly not official, but it's how I will forever run Dan Bong at my tables.
Dan bong
Source Ultimate Equipment pg. 20, Ultimate Combat pg. 130
Statistics
Cost 1 sp Weight —
Damage 1d2 (small), 1d3 (medium); Critical 19-20/x2; Range 10 ft.; Type B; Special blocking, monk, see text
Category Light; Proficiency Exotic
Weapon Groups Close; Monk
Description
These short, blunt sticks are held in the hands to enhance unarmed martial techniques and secured by a cord looped over the thumb. They provide the wielder with the ability to lock an opponent and target pressure points, granting you a +2 bonus on combat maneuver checks to grapple. When using one or more dan bong, you can ignore the penalty for not having two hands free when making a combat maneuver check to initiate a grapple against a creature you threaten.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Mark Hoover 330 wrote: Want a good weapon to grapple with, as long as you want to go Exotic Weapon Proficiency? Look no further than the humble net.
Standard EWP lets you use a net to throw folded nets up to 10' and deliver Entangled if you hit a foe's Touch AC. Add in Equipment Trick (Net), Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple however and you unlock the following:
Net Tricks wrote: Grappling Net (Improved Grapple) When you attempt a grapple combat maneuver check against a foe entangled by a net whose trailing rope you control, you do not take a penalty on the grapple combat maneuver check for not having two hands free, and you gain a +4 bonus on the check. If you successfully pin the target while it is still entangled by the net, you can use the net to tie up the target as a swift action. So a PC with this feat gains a +4 vs their Entangled opponent, suffers no penalty to Grapple when both hands aren't free and their foe has an additional -2 penalty to CMD from the Entangled condition.
A build that takes advantage of this: Grippli C-Monk (Maneuver Master)
Str 12 (14 -2 Racial), Dex 18 (16 +2 Racial), Con 12, Int 10, Wis 16 (14 +2 Racial), Cha 8
Racial proficiency with nets
L1 Dodge
L1 Bonus Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple
L2 Retrain Dodge to Equipment Trick (Net)
L2 Bonus Dodge
At this point you've got a PC with a 10' Ranged Touch Net +6 to deliver Entangled. If this hits and the monk hasn't used a Move action yet, they can take a 5' step and Flurry of Maneuvers. They can then attempt a Grapple +8 against an Entangled foe with a -2 penalty to their CMD.
I'm sure there are other, better builds than this. Feel free to go nuts. I just figured the net was a way to skip the hands occupied grapple penalty with some decent utility.
This is very interesting, but I'm confused as to where you got the +6 to hit and the +8 for the grapple. Shouldn't the to hit be +5 (+1 BAB, +4 dex)? And likewise the CMB (+2 level, +4 dex, +1 str) = +7.
Grippli are small... that's a +1 size bonus to attack, and a -1 size penalty to CMB/CMD... without Agile Maneuvers, though, Dexterity would not be factored into CMB... and you're not using [or even have] Weapon Finesse, so all that jazz about using Dex for maneuvers performed with finesse weapons does not apply here.
I love Grippli with nets, but that particular build has some holes in it.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
VoodistMonk wrote: Grippli are small... that's a +1 size bonus to attack, and a -1 size penalty to CMB/CMD... without Agile Maneuvers, though, Dexterity would not be factored into CMB... and you're not using [or even have] Weapon Finesse, so all that jazz about using Dex for maneuvers performed with finesse weapons does not apply here.
I love Grippli with nets, but that particular build has some holes in it.
I was mistaking CMB with CMD, that's why I put dex in there.
So the CMB should actually be +6? (+2 level, +4 net, +1 str, -1 size)
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