Exploit vulnerability out of combat

[JstCurious]

My GM and I have a difference of opinion. Is there a rule that prevents using EV before combat starts?
The scenario was thus: My Thaum was observing a monster from a hundred feet or so away while the group discusses tactics for taking it on. I wanted to use exploit vulnerability so I can 1)be ready when combat starts, and 2)if I learn something useful (like a mortal weakness), I can include it in the discussion on how to fight the creature. GM says no, that the ability can only be used in combat.
I understand that invoking the weakness to cause damage is a combat activity, but why can’t the thaumaturge use the find weakness aspect of it outside of combat? It seems to me that EV is split into two parts, figuring out the weakness, and applying it. I think that to “scour your experiences and learning to identify something that might repel your foe” is a simple exercise the thaumaturge should be able to do practically any time. Also, even the actual action of applying esoterica to a weapon in order to establish the effect should necessarily involve combat. If I unobserved, it should be easily done. Observed, it might raise eyebrows when you start fiddling with a weapon, but even that doesn’t necessarily mean combat has to begin.
To me, it is akin to an archer aiming or applying poison to arrows prior to combat. I can’t figure out why it can’t be done, and haven’t been able to find a rule that applies.

[breithauptclan]

The closer comparison is Ranger's Hunt Prey. Which can most definitely be done outside of combat.

For Exploit Vulnerability, the only requirements on the action are that you are holding one of your Implements, and that it can't be done more often than once per round.

[HammerJack]

This sounds like there was probably an assumption that things with an in-combat action cost can't be done in exploration mode. That assumption is both fairly common and incorrect.

[25speedforseaweedleshy]

allow recall knowledge out of combat

maybe use the same roll or give circumstance bonus for high roll recall knowledge for the in combat exploit weakness

[HammerJack]

Recall Knowledge is also something that no rule prevents outside of combat.

[breithauptclan]

It would also be really strange to forbid Swim or Climb outside of combat also.

The Thaumaturge player that I play with did bring up a point for the opposition though. Exploit Vulnerability does describe applying Esoterica to your weapon - which does seem to be something fairly temporary. But I don't see that temporary nature being enforced by the rules.

[aobst128]

You should be able to. In fact, the lantern intensify effect supports this for non combat uses.

[Captain Morgan]

breithauptclan wrote:

It would also be really strange to forbid Swim or Climb outside of combat also.

The Thaumaturge player that I play with did bring up a point for the opposition though. Exploit Vulnerability does describe applying Esoterica to your weapon - which does seem to be something fairly temporary. But I don't see that temporary nature being enforced by the rules.

The rules say you gain the benefits until you Exploit Vulnerability again. I don't see anything suggesting it is temporary in the flavor either.

On the contrary, Mortal Weakness works across all creatures of the exact same type*, so if you'll do better fighting a troll hoard than an ogre clan.

*I'll note I'm not entirely clear what constitutes "exact same type." Type isn't clearly defined like traits are. It seems reasonable that a werewolf leader doesn't get immunity to the same Mortal Weakness as her werewolf underlings just because she has the unique tag. But what if you're fighting a succubus and a quasit at the same time?

[QuidEst]

Captain Morgan wrote:

breithauptclan wrote:

It would also be really strange to forbid Swim or Climb outside of combat also.

The Thaumaturge player that I play with did bring up a point for the opposition though. Exploit Vulnerability does describe applying Esoterica to your weapon - which does seem to be something fairly temporary. But I don't see that temporary nature being enforced by the rules.

The rules say you gain the benefits until you Exploit Vulnerability again. I don't see anything suggesting it is temporary in the flavor either.

On the contrary, Mortal Weakness works across all creatures of the exact same type*, so if you'll do better fighting a troll hoard than an ogre clan.

*I'll note I'm not entirely clear what constitutes "exact same type." Type isn't clearly defined like traits are. It seems reasonable that a werewolf leader doesn't get immunity to the same Mortal Weakness as her werewolf underlings just because she has the unique tag. But what if you're fighting a succubus and a quasit at the same time?

"Exact same type" presumably means same stat block or it wouldn't say exact same type. So yes, the werewolf leader gets immunity to the mortal weakness of her werewolf underlings.

[breithauptclan]

QuidEst wrote:

"Exact same type" presumably means same stat block or it wouldn't say exact same type.

Not sure I would go quite that far. Elite and Weak templates could change a creature's stats slightly, but I wouldn't consider them to no longer be the exact same type.

Even stranger would be something like Advisor which isn't as much a particular type of creature as a generic NPC. Now, the PCs probably aren't going to be fighting a group of them at once. But still the point remains and could be extrapolated to something that is less contrived. A stat block doesn't necessarily encapsulate the entirety of a creatures type. So multiple different creature types could end up using the same stat block.

[QuidEst]

breithauptclan wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

"Exact same type" presumably means same stat block or it wouldn't say exact same type.

Not sure I would go quite that far. Elite and Weak templates could change a creature's stats slightly, but I wouldn't consider them to no longer be the exact same type.

Even stranger would be something like Advisor which isn't as much a particular type of creature as a generic NPC. Now, the PCs probably aren't going to be fighting a group of them at once. But still the point remains and could be extrapolated to something that is less contrived. A stat block doesn't necessarily encapsulate the entirety of a creatures type. So multiple different creature types could end up using the same stat block.

Yeah, I'd definitely let mixed simple templates slide, but I'd also still consider them to be using the same stat block even if one has some bonuses or penalties. GM call on "these creatures have the same stat block but are different creature types"; I'd be tempted to let the identical role and function in life be a sufficient connection to have a weakness travel across.

[aobst128]

Even among creatures with wholely different blocks, like a young dragon and an adult dragon, I'd consider them the same type of creature. Same goes for anything with varient blocks like kobolds, goblins, or skeletons.

[Captain Morgan]

The problem I have with using stat blocks as types is that stat blocks don't exist in fiction. I can rationalize the esoteric exploitation working differently between a red cap and a demon, but not why the first six red caps being kosher when their leader two levels higher isn't. It isn't like the first 6 red caps are clones of each other. The default stats are an abstraction which doesn't encompass things like age, height, or weight variance.

If I had to pick a compromise, I'd define type as the bestiary name of the creature. Even unique specimens get labeled by their bestiary species, like Male Werewolf Druid or Male Moorelock Cult Leader.

[Super Zero]

breithauptclan wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

"Exact same type" presumably means same stat block or it wouldn't say exact same type.

Not sure I would go quite that far. Elite and Weak templates could change a creature's stats slightly, but I wouldn't consider them to no longer be the exact same type.

Even stranger would be something like Advisor which isn't as much a particular type of creature as a generic NPC. Now, the PCs probably aren't going to be fighting a group of them at once. But still the point remains and could be extrapolated to something that is less contrived. A stat block doesn't necessarily encapsulate the entirety of a creatures type. So multiple different creature types could end up using the same stat block.

Remember that it only matters if they have a weakness.

While Thaumaturges can create an entirely new weakness if they need to, that Personal Antithesis only ever applies to one specific creatur.

[aobst128]

Super Zero wrote:

breithauptclan wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

"Exact same type" presumably means same stat block or it wouldn't say exact same type.

Not sure I would go quite that far. Elite and Weak templates could change a creature's stats slightly, but I wouldn't consider them to no longer be the exact same type.

Even stranger would be something like Advisor which isn't as much a particular type of creature as a generic NPC. Now, the PCs probably aren't going to be fighting a group of them at once. But still the point remains and could be extrapolated to something that is less contrived. A stat block doesn't necessarily encapsulate the entirety of a creatures type. So multiple different creature types could end up using the same stat block.

Remember that it only matters if they have a weakness.

While Thaumaturges can create an entirely new weakness if they need to, that Personal Antithesis only ever applies to one specific creatur.

Unless you take sympathetic vulnerabilities, which allows you to apply personal antithesis to same type creatures that aren't humanoids.