Those guidelines are only for improvised activities.
Hustle is not an improvised activity. Without houserules, you are simply not able to Hustle longer than the lowest Con bonus of the group allows. In no case does it cause Fatigued.
And if you don't agree with the GMs rulings or houserules, then that is a different problem entirely.
They give hustle as an example to emulate in improvised activities, so I don't see why it should be looked at differently. Secondly, as you said, hustle has a limit: so what do you do after that? Sounds like an improvised activity for 'hustle after time limit' and the suggested limitation for it, since time limit has been use, is fatigue... ""might have limited use or cause fatigue"
Secondly, as you said, hustle has a limit: so what do you do after that?For example, no more hustle until at least 10 minutes of rest. Or 30 minutes. Or until next 8 hour rest in the extreme case. They did forget to make condition to remove the restriction...
Sure they could have done any of those, but didn't. Like a lot of the game [especially outside of combat], things can be incredibly loose and/or expects the dm is 'figure it out' for themselves like familiars in exploration/downtime. My point here is it's one place where they actually give some guidelines on what to do. Hear the suggestion is a time limit or fatigued, and since the base activity is times, it fatigued is the other suggested option for 'pushing through' after the first time limit is reached.
As to a duration for fatigued... Fatigue given without a duration generally last until rest. Resting, Core Rulebook pg. 499: A character who rests for 8 hours recovers in the following ways:
The character regains Hit Points equal to their Constitution modifier (minimum 1) multiplied by their level. If they rest without any shelter or comfort, you might reduce this healing by half (to a minimum of 1 HP).
The character loses the fatigued condition.
The character reduces the severity of the doomed and drained conditions by 1.
Most spellcasters need to rest before they regain their spells for the day."
The only way losing fatigue makes sense in rest is if there are ways to fatigue that are long term. We are talking about activities that happen outside of combat, so an it lasting until rest seems right.
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I think a point that was trying to be made earlier is that there's a bit of a paradox if the rule is that hustling more than the given time causes you to automatically become fatigued. Since you can't hustle when you are fatigued, you stop hustling as soon as you exceed the given time. So there is no benefit to hustling more than the given time. So why would anyone ever do it? And why would a GM not tell the player that's what is going to happen beforehand?
I think a point that was trying to be made earlier is that there's a bit of a paradox if the rule is that hustling more than the given time causes you to automatically become fatigued.
You're mixing things. The guideline is that strenuous activities either have time limits or cause fatigue after use for a particular time. So Hustle has a time limit before you have to stop. Extending that would mean dropping the initial time limit and setting a new time before fatigue sets in: going by other tiring abilities, 10 min seems to be the norm. The new 'not hustle' hustle that lasts longer than normal.
And why would a GM not tell the player that's what is going to happen beforehand?
We don't know if they where told the first time, but we know it happened multiple times so even if they weren't the first time, they know the second.
My suggestion is to pick up items to help with fatigue if someone is worried about it. Traveler's Cloak, wand of Soothing Spring, feats like Caravan Leader, Pick up the Pace, or heritages like Warmarch Hobgoblin, Badlands Orc and or things like Song of Marching.
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I think this is the first time you‘ve assigned an amount of time before fatigued would kick in. Previously you’ve said if you hustle beyond the time limit, you become fatigued. That’s what I was referring to. If you become fatigued at action 1 past con x 10 mins, but you can’t hustle when fatigued, then you gain no benefit by hustling past the limit. The second part that you separated wasn’t asking why the OP’s GM didn’t warn them. It was about that paradoxical interpretation of the rules.
You have now suggested someone could continue to hustle for 10 minutes, which at least provides some benefit.
I think this is the first time you‘ve assigned an amount of time before fatigued would kick in.
There isn't a time, per se: It's a time for a 'not hustle' hustle to finish.
Previously you’ve said if you hustle beyond the time limit, you become fatigued.
Yes, after your duration ends and you want to continue: it'd be a strenuous action after all. The Dm could have also just denied the ability to move faster at all.
That’s what I was referring to. If you become fatigued at action 1 past con x 10 mins, but you can’t hustle when fatigued, then you gain no benefit by hustling past the limit. The second part that you separated wasn’t asking why the OP’s GM didn’t warn them. It was about that paradoxical interpretation of the rules.
You have now suggested someone could continue to hustle for 10 minutes, which at least provides some benefit.
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. I guess I skipped a step in my head when I was posting. Yes, it's not the hustle that fatigues but attempting to continue it. This is clearly what they did as it couldn't be a normal hustle or even what the improvised activities section suggests. OP said "Hustling for an hour or two to save the kingdom (Plot reasons, party decision)": that'd require every party member to have a con of 22 [1 hr] to 34[2 hrs] for a normal hustle. If anything should give you fatigue, it's doing something that normally requires a constitution of 34 to complete...
Sorry, nothing in there guarantees that you are always allowed a Fortitude save to avoid the Fatigued condition.
Even if I fully agree that there are no guarantees in the rules there need to be a check, I fail to find situations where a numerical value isn't used at all when determining the effects of something that definitely falls under its perimeter (unless of course the numerical value is too low or high to have any impact on the effect, no need to roll a Strength check to lift a feather).
Maybe can you find some?
Sorry, nothing in there guarantees that you are always allowed a Fortitude save to avoid the Fatigued condition.Even if I fully agree that there are no guarantees in the rules there need to be a check, I fail to find situations where a numerical value isn't used at all when determining the effects of something that definitely falls under its perimeter (unless of course the numerical value is too low or high to have any impact on the effect, no need to roll a Strength check to lift a feather).
Maybe can you find some?
Sure, take swim and climb when you have a swim or climb speed: you are no longer required to roll for normal checks.
Starvation and Thirst
Source Core Rulebook pg. 500
"Typically characters eat and drink enough to survive comfortably. When they can't, they're fatigued until they do. Without water, after a number of days equal to a creature's Constitution modifier + 1, the creature takes 1d4 damage each hour that can't be healed until it quenches its thirst. After the same amount of time without food, it takes 1 damage each day that can't be healed until it eats."
Also Effects, Rulebook pg. 453
"Anything you do in the game has an effect. Many of these outcomes are easy to adjudicate during the game. If you tell the GM that you draw your sword, no check is needed, and the result is that your character is now holding a sword. Other times, the specific effect requires more detailed rules governing how your choice is resolved. Many spells, magic items, and feats create specific effects, and your character will be subject to effects caused by monsters, hazards, the environment, and other characters.
While a check might determine the overall impact or strength of an effect, a check is not always part of creating an effect. Casting a fly spell on yourself creates an effect that allows you to soar through the air, but casting the spell does not require a check. Conversely, using the Intimidate skill to Demoralize a foe does require a check, and your result on that check determines the effect’s outcome."
Duration, Core Rulebook pg. 455, "Instead of lasting a fixed number of rounds, a duration might end only when certain conditions are met (or cease to be true)."
Fatigue, Core Rulebook pg. 517
Precipitation causes discomfort and fatigue. Anything heavier than drizzle or light snowfall reduces the time it takes for characters to become fatigued from overland travel to only 4 hours.
Temperature, Core Rulebook pg. 517 4.0
Often, temperature doesn’t impose enough of a mechanical effect to worry about beyond describing the clothing the characters need to wear to be comfortable. Particularly hot and cold weather can make creatures fatigued more quickly during overland travel and can cause damage if harsh enough, as shown in Table 10–13.
Sorry, nothing in there guarantees that you are always allowed a Fortitude save to avoid the Fatigued condition.Even if I fully agree that there are no guarantees in the rules there need to be a check, I fail to find situations where a numerical value isn't used at all when determining the effects of something that definitely falls under its perimeter (unless of course the numerical value is too low or high to have any impact on the effect, no need to roll a Strength check to lift a feather).
Maybe can you find some?Sure, take swim and climb when you have a swim or climb speed: you are no longer required to roll for normal checks.
Starvation and Thirst
Source Core Rulebook pg. 500
"Typically characters eat and drink enough to survive comfortably. When they can't, they're fatigued until they do. Without water, after a number of days equal to a creature's Constitution modifier + 1, the creature takes 1d4 damage each hour that can't be healed until it quenches its thirst. After the same amount of time without food, it takes 1 damage each day that can't be healed until it eats."Also Effects, Rulebook pg. 453
"Anything you do in the game has an effect. Many of these outcomes are easy to adjudicate during the game. If you tell the GM that you draw your sword, no check is needed, and the result is that your character is now holding a sword. Other times, the specific effect requires more detailed rules governing how your choice is resolved. Many spells, magic items, and feats create specific effects, and your character will be subject to effects caused by monsters, hazards, the environment, and other characters.While a check might determine the overall impact or strength of an effect, a check is not always part of creating an effect. Casting a fly spell on yourself creates an effect that allows you to soar through the air, but casting the spell does not require a check. Conversely, using the Intimidate skill to Demoralize a...
I fail to see where you are heading. You are not answering my question with your examples as they are either based on numerical values or are too easy to need the use of the numerical value.
I fail to see where you are heading. You are not answering my question with your examples as they are either based on numerical values or are too easy to need the use of the numerical value.
Then I do not understand what you're asking. what exactly do you mean by "numerical values"? Please give an example of what you mean. For instance, what numerical value is there in swim with a swim speed not needing a check?
I fail to see where you are heading. You are not answering my question with your examples as they are either based on numerical values or are too easy to need the use of the numerical value.Then I do not understand what you're asking. what exactly do you mean by "numerical values"? Please give an example of what you mean. For instance, what numerical value is there in swim with a swim speed not needing a check?
My question is roughly:
Is there a situation that:- Falls under a numerical value (from skills to saves to attributes).
- Is not impossible (lifting a cathedral).
- Nor impossible to fail (swimming in a calm lake when you have a Swim Speed).
and doesn't use any numerical value to determine the outcome?
Is it clearer?
Your examples were either using a numerical value (Constitution for Starvation) or so easy that there's only one outcome (swimming when you have a swim speed).
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So, interestingly, Treasure Vault will have a L6 Consumable, the Scholar's Drop, that can be used to suppress Fatigue for 10 minutes. 1 hour cooldown, and if it's used 3 times in a day the cooldown becomes "until you get a full night's rest."
I fail to see where you are heading. You are not answering my question with your examples as they are either based on numerical values or are too easy to need the use of the numerical value.Then I do not understand what you're asking. what exactly do you mean by "numerical values"? Please give an example of what you mean. For instance, what numerical value is there in swim with a swim speed not needing a check?My question is roughly:
Is there a situation that:
- Falls under a numerical value (from skills to saves to attributes).
- Is not impossible (lifting a cathedral).
- Nor impossible to fail (swimming in a calm lake when you have a Swim Speed).
and doesn't use any numerical value to determine the outcome?Is it clearer?
Your examples were either using a numerical value (Constitution for Starvation) or so easy that there's only one outcome (swimming when you have a swim speed).
I still don't get you, as you're asking for a situation that would ask for a check but isn't a check. If it's a situation that has variable outcomes, a check is given. If it's a situation that doesn't have variable outcomes, none is given. For instance, repair is a skill roll while scout doesn't involve a roll: should scout be expected to be a roll because it should be linked to perception? Do you think of scout as not impossible but impossible to fail? I'm just not getting it or the point.
So, interestingly, Treasure Vault will have a L6 Consumable, the Scholar's Drop, that can be used to suppress Fatigue for 10 minutes. 1 hour cooldown, and if it's used 3 times in a day the cooldown becomes "until you get a full night's rest."Clearly they heard me and listened!
Lol
This has gone down a bit of a rabbit hole, and they point was never about *why* you get fatigued or *how* you get fatigued, but about why it needs to rob a class of its class and turn it into 'some guy' when that class should be the most resilient. Probably better to make a champion too tired to use Reactions, a fighter lose their weapon proficiency, or a caster lose their highest level slots to keep everything balanced, but I'll take the consumable. :P
Well, the ways that make you fatigued for long periods of time are ones you mostly voluntarily accept so you could always avoid those: for instance, limit yourself to the normal hustle times, eat, drink and sleep regularly, don't wander around in extreme temperatures, ect. Sometimes you can't avoid them but sometimes the rogue/investigator run into creatures immune to precision damage or the enchanter meets mindless creatures, a witch gets their familiar eaten [you need to rest before you get it back], ect.