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Fatigued condition also prevents Sustain a Spell. Which can be rather detrimental to a lot of spells that spellcasters want to cast. Including nearly all Witch Hexes.
And you haven't seen the Youtube video where Logan Bonner says that a character with Witch Archetype who has their familiar die has to wait until they have a week of downtime to replace it, have you?
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I've rarely had the Fatigued Condition. On top of it, high Fortitude Barbarian (the only class to get Greater Juggernaut) rarely fail their saves against it.
I'm playing a Psychic lately, and I can assure you Stupefied makes me feel stupid regularly...
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Familiars getting killed, at least in my experience, has been way less frequent than the party getting fatigued. And I think the individual player had a ton of control over that.
Usually because most tables handwave away the familiar's very existence.
Which is fine, I guess. But not everyone wants to do that. And one of my characters nearly had their familiar get 1-shot by an AOE trap. Phase Familiar managed to leave her with about 3 HP left.
A Witch Archetype character on the other hand ...
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I don't think Fatigue is that common. Most things that inflict it list a finite duration. It would probably have to be self inflicted to actually stick, which is avoidable if you just... Don't use activities long enough to get fatigued. And if you HAVE to push yourself that hard, your casters are probably out of slots and what not so everyone will want to rest. And the AC and save penalty is so harsh even fighters will probably want to rest.
I think the fatigued is a lot less common than, say, immunity to precision damage, which impacts at least 4 classes.
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I've run three Adventure Paths and I've seen the casters Silenced more than I've seen Fatigue inflicted on the party. And I've definitely seen more Precision-immune, high Resistance Ghosts and Oozes, which completely shut down the mechanics of several classes.
Sometimes things will be harder for one class over another- that's a feature, not a bug.
I'm sorta reminded of the controlled condition. It completely shuts down characters and is listed in the same category as frightened, but that doesn't mean they are equally common.
I'm sorta reminded of the controlled condition. It completely shuts down characters and is listed in the same category as frightened, but that doesn't mean they are equally common.
I don't think that's a great comparison, though, because Controlled will largely shut down anyone effected by it.
The OP's issue is the asymmetry. If a fighter or rogue gets fatigued, they take a very small penalty to AC and Saves. If a barbarian gets fatigued, they almost don't have a class anymore.
YMMV on how much that matters, but it's a different issue than the one you're bringing up.
I'm sorta reminded of the controlled condition. It completely shuts down characters and is listed in the same category as frightened, but that doesn't mean they are equally common.I don't think that's a great comparison, though, because Controlled will largely shut down anyone effected by it.
The OP's issue is the asymmetry. If a fighter or rogue gets fatigued, they take a very small penalty to AC and Saves. If a barbarian gets fatigued, they almost don't have a class anymore.
YMMV on how much that matters, but it's a different issue than the one you're bringing up.
True, but the OPs concern seems predicated on fatigued being a "common condition," and my point is not all conditions in that chapter are common. Fatigued is not one of them.
I get that it has an asymmetrical impact, but it doesn't actually matter if it doesn't happen. By contrast, you can't Devise a Strategem on an invisible enemy and that pops up way more than fatigued.
Playing Kingmaker now and during hexploration we're almost always Fatigued by the time we make camp...
And you haven't seen the Youtube video where Logan Bonner says that a character with Witch Archetype who has their familiar die has to wait until they have a week of downtime to replace it, have you?
I know I haven't as I don't look at random video on the off chance we get nugget of errata/FAQ. Rabble, Rabble, Rabble, Rabble.
Usually because most tables handwave away the familiar's very existence.
Yep, they aren't bad items.
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The situations:
-Walking an hour or two in heavy snow (DM fiat for whole party)
-swimming in an icy lake (player choice. But there was loot!)
-Hustling for an hour or two to save the kingdom (Plot reasons, party decision)
-Staying up all night for a ghost to appear (somewhat poor planning)
-Party going to do 'just one more thing' and not resting (definitely their fault)
-Deciding to hustle for plot reasons (party choice, but pressured with the deaths of innocents)
-Exploring and frigid cold cave system until the environme t caught up with them. (Party decision, but no avoiding it really)
-Attacks in the middle of the night preventing rest (DM choice, but made sense for the scenario)
I really feel that your GM(s) is using Fatigue far too often.
Things like staying up all night or attacks in the middle of the night should just ask for a low difficulty Fortitude check (like DC 15) to avoid Fatigue. I mean, a normal teenager can do it without being fatigued, I expect a hero to be able to do it easily.Hustling for an hour or 2 is not a hard task per se, the DC should be low.
Then you have environment Fatigue. This one can be avoided through magic, and I think it should be the case for a prepared party.
And I don't understand why swimming in an icy lake fatigues (unless it's for an hour). It should definitely deal damage, gives lots of penalties if you fail Constitution checks, but then you can just heat yourself around a campfire and the fatigue should wear off quickly.
The situations:
-Walking an hour or two in heavy snow (DM fiat for whole party)
-swimming in an icy lake (player choice. But there was loot!)
-Hustling for an hour or two to save the kingdom (Plot reasons, party decision)
-Staying up all night for a ghost to appear (somewhat poor planning)
-Party going to do 'just one more thing' and not resting (definitely their fault)
-Deciding to hustle for plot reasons (party choice, but pressured with the deaths of innocents)
-Exploring and frigid cold cave system until the environme t caught up with them. (Party decision, but no avoiding it really)
-Attacks in the middle of the night preventing rest (DM choice, but made sense for the scenario)
It really seems your GM is being a bit too draconian with the Fatigue rules. Now, admittedly, Paizo hasn't done the best job with the Fatigue rules, as they're scattered over a number of different places.
So, for example, walking an hour or two in heavy snow: Your GM made you Fatigued from that? There are no rules for that unless the heavy snow is actually falling from the sky, and even then from the Precipitation rules you shouldn't get Fatigued from that unless you went for over four hours.
Now, for the cold and the like, you might want to look into the Endure Elements spell or something like Winter-Wolf Elixirs. Also, there is Soothing Spring (L4 Divine & Primal). It's slow, but it can get rid of Fatigue faster than resting will.
Swimming in an icy lake: For how long? You should be able to do that for at least four hours... anything colder than Mild Cold (13-32 F) the lake would be frozen, not icy.
Hustling: So, not only is there *not* a rule that states you're Fatigued if you Hustle for more than (Con Bonus of your lowest Con Party Member) x 10 minutes... there are no rules for exceeding that duration period, except by a couple of General Feats. So, your GM is firmly in house rule territory here, and a conversation needs to be had about how the house rule is a severe impairment to your character.
As for attacks in the middle of the night... again, that's draconian. As long as you have gotten *some* rest, and get back to it, that should be sufficient (although of course you have to be reasonable about it.) Requiring 6 hours continuous rest (the requirement for getting rid of "you haven't rested for over 16 hours" Fatigue) or you're automatically Fatigued is ridiculous IMHO. For one thing, you couldn't set up a watch system to guard folks without everybody but the last watch being Fatigued!
So it's not just a single game. I've been hit with fatigued in at least 3 games in the past few months,
With the same GM and players?
Because the idea of 'most things' causing fatigue for the full remaining day until a full nights rest doesn't match up with what I am reading. It sounds more like someone who is still going off of the exploration activity rules from the CRB playtest.
In the current rules, the only exploration activity that causes fatigue is an improvised activity.
Improvising New Activities
If a player wants to do something not covered by other rules, here are some guidelines. If the activity is similar to an action someone could use in an encounter, such as Avoid Notice, it usually consists of a single action repeated roughly 10 times per minute (such as using the Sneak action 10 times) or an alternation of actions that works out similarly (such as Search, which alternates Stride and Seek). An activity using a quicker pace, corresponding to roughly 20 actions per minute, might have limited use or cause fatigue, as would one requiring intense concentration.
Hustle doesn't. Nor any of the other printed explicit exploration activities.
Bad weather (cold and rain both) can cause fatigue - but only if you self-inflict it by staying out in the weather too long without any protection.
And any of the other things that I have seen that cause the fatigued condition list a relatively short duration for it.
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As for attacks in the middle of the night... again, that's draconian. As long as you have gotten *some* rest, and get back to it, that should be sufficient (although of course you have to be reasonable about it.) Requiring 6 hours continuous rest (the requirement for getting rid of "you haven't rested for over 16 hours" Fatigue) or you're automatically Fatigued is ridiculous IMHO. For one thing, you couldn't set up a watch system to guard folks without everybody but the last watch being Fatigued!
Yes. Even spellcasters can stand watch in the middle of the night for a couple of hours and still be considered to have gotten enough rest to regain their spell slots.
In about a year running Carrion Crown I believe my Monk with Barb dedication player got fatigued once in a situation where it mattered. He fended off four Animate dreams at once while the party was in another room, unaware that he had split the party. The floor was almost done but because an unlucky save vs. nightmares, he couldn't benefit from his temp hp or extra damage for a while and ended up severely weakened (again bc 4v1 until the Champion finished what he was doing and found the door open).
My party rarely finds a need to hustle and arrive at a fight already exhausted, but I suppose if this adventure had been less urban it might have been more relevant to apply weather effects, so I can only offer a data point, not an analysis.
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Most of the times fatigue has been given no duration, or rather a duration until rest. Not just 10 minutes, but a full night.
And by the rules, I don't believe you get Fort saves for such things. I don't think any DMs I've had give them.
Just, "You hustle more than 10min x CON, you're fatigued." and "You spend x hours in y climate, you are fatigued." and "You stay up past 16 hours, you are fatigued."
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=642
"Particularly hot and cold weather can make creatures fatigued more quickly during overland travel"https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=534
"If a character goes more than 16 hours without going to sleep, they become fatigued."And the rules don't actually say you become fatigued after hustling, which is the most common source I've seen, ironically. But again, no saves have been given.
If several DMs are doing this, ones who tend to stick pretty close to RAW, then it might need a rules update? *shrug*
Or adding a barbarian class feat that gives you a Fort save any time you would become fatigued would be a nice fit all-around.
I have the feeling that it's a group dynamic, that your GMs love to inflict the Fatigued condition.
Because some of these rules are rarely applied as is. The 16 hours for example shouldn't apply to a normal day but to an adventuring day. Normal people can stay awake for 16 hours without being Fatigued.Considering that if you have to move fast for 2 hours you are automatically Fatigued is also not in the rules.
Weather and overland travel, on the other hand, are a classical way of being Fatigued, but one you can leverage through the use of mounts, special clothing and magic.
So I don't think it needs a rule update. If this is a common thing among your GMs, then just don't play a Barbarian with them. Different groups have different expectations that may impact the characters you should play.
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But you should always get Fortitude saves to avoid Fatigued condition. Giving the condition without a save just breaks the concept of Fortitude. Once you give Fortitude checks, the Barbarian gets back to unfatiguable.
That was addressed earlier too.
I think the fatigued is a lot less common than, say, immunity to precision damage, which impacts at least 4 classes.
Yes. Some conditions and other such things affect certain types of characters more than others.
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If you really have a problem with this, you could see about talking to your GM about making a distinction between the fatigued that Rage applies and references and the fatigued that comes from environmental effects and other such things.
Because that seems to be the only reason that Rage references fatigued - because it uses fatigued to prevent using Rage again once it ends. This type of overloading of terms can be a bit of a problem at times.
But you should always get Fortitude saves to avoid Fatigued condition.
Where are you getting that idea from?
Many attacks that apply fatigued allow a fortitude save. But that certainly is different than 'always' getting a fortitude save.
Climate effects give fatigued without a save. Ending a Rage gives fatigued without a save. Staying awake too long gives fatigued without a save.
I really feel that your GM(s) is using Fatigue far too often.
It doesn't seem like that to me.
The situations:
-Walking an hour or two in heavy snow (DM fiat for whole party)
Not fiat per se: Temperature Effects table lists fatigue and precipitation in mentioned in fatigue.
-swimming in an icy lake (player choice. But there was loot!)
-Hustling for an hour or two to save the kingdom (Plot reasons, party decision)
Hustle can fatigue in 10 minutes as can any activity the Dm rules is strenuous [IE, would be 2 actions per turn in combat]. So swimming plus Seeking/looting, ect can qualify.
-Staying up all night for a ghost to appear (somewhat poor planning)
-Party going to do 'just one more thing' and not resting (definitely their fault)
Yep, more than 16 hrs awake causes fatigue as does resting in armor.
-Deciding to hustle for plot reasons (party choice, but pressured with the deaths of innocents)
Yep, 10 min of it can cause fatigue.
-Exploring and frigid cold cave system until the environme t caught up with them. (Party decision, but no avoiding it really)
Yep, it's listed under Temperature Effects.
-Attacks in the middle of the night preventing rest (DM choice, but made sense for the scenario)
Only if they where already fatigued. Nothing in the rules prevents rests from adding up unless you never got any time to rest.
So in only one of these situations is it pure fiat IMO.
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But you should always get Fortitude saves to avoid Fatigued condition.Where are you getting that idea from?
Many attacks that apply fatigued allow a fortitude save. But that certainly is different than 'always' getting a fortitude save.
Climate effects give fatigued without a save. Ending a Rage gives fatigued without a save. Staying awake too long gives fatigued without a save.
First, ending Rage doesn't make you Fatigued, it's only if you Rage twice in a row with a specific feat that it does.
Second, from there: "Fortitude saving throws allow you to reduce the effects of abilities and afflictions that can debilitate the body."
And I think Fatigued is an affliction that debilitates the body.
If you don't ask for a save, it means that after 8 hours of walk, the 8 Constitution level 1 Wizard is in the same condition than the level 20 Barbarian. It's preposterous.
As a GM, you have to make a difference between the endurance of different characters. Either you ask for Fortitude saves during the 8 hours of walk to represent the slow exhaustion of the party, and the Wizard should as such be in a pretty bad state after the 8 hours, or you start rolling dice at the 8-hour mark. Sure, you can decide not to do so, but that's just using simplified mechanics. If it's fine for everyone, go on, but if one of your players is complaining because the simplification makes their character look bad, then you should use a more accurate mechanic.
Not fiat per se: Temperature Effects table lists fatigue and precipitation in mentioned in fatigue.
They say it can make you fatigued. Not that it's automatic.
Hustle can fatigue in 10 minutes as can any activity the Dm rules is strenuous [IE, would be 2 actions per turn in combat]. So swimming plus Seeking/looting, ect can qualify.
Not really. The rules say that they "might [have limited use or] cause fatigue". Nothing states it's automatic.
And hustling doesn't have any language regarding Fatigue, you can't just Hustle more than 10 minutes.Yep, more than 16 hrs awake causes fatigue as does resting in armor.
"If you go more than 16 hours without resting, you become fatigued"
It doesn't say awake. Obviously, no Barbarian should be fatigued after 16 hours of drinking cocktails by the pool. Because that's resting. You are limited to an 8-hour rest period where you regain hit points and make your daily preparations but it doesn't mean that you can't rest at any other moment of the day, just that it won't allow you to make your daily preparations again.
If you are adventuring for 16 hours in a row, I understand you end up fatigued (and you should be rolling Fortitude saves far before the 16 hour mark). But if you have proper resting time during the day, you can last way more.
So, it's GM fiat all along to me. All of these situations can or might cause Fatigue, but reading them as automatic with no save is a GM choice.
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They say it can make you fatigued. Not that it's automatic.
It lists fatigue over a column that lists times: IE, after that amount of time, you're fatigued automatically. It'd have a DC if it was only a possibility. "Particularly hot and cold weather can make creatures fatigued more quickly during overland travel and can cause damage if harsh enough, as shown in Table 10–13." So the more quickly is clearly the time it takes to fatigue.
Not really. The rules say that they "might [have limited use or] cause fatigue". Nothing states it's automatic.
And hustling doesn't have any language regarding Fatigue, you can't just Hustle more than 10 minutes.
Not what I said: "any activity the Dm rules is strenuous". And it's pretty clear what the requirements are for it in the adjudicating new activities so I wouldn't call it pure dm fiat. Improvising New Activities, Gamemastery Guide pg. 19: "Hustle is a good example of an activity that can’t be done indefinitely, so you can use it as a model for strenuous activities where the PCs are using the equivalent of 2 actions every 6 seconds."
Secondly, hustling has a time limit: "You can Hustle only for a number of minutes equal to your Constitution modifier × 10 (minimum 10 minutes)." It's why I said "Hustle can fatigue in 10 minutes" not 'Hustle fatigues in 10 minutes' as it's con based and the time varies from 10 min to 70 min so if anyone in the party has an 8 or a 10 con, it can trigger in 10 min. Hence, why I said it CAN fatigue in 10 min because it can be only 10 min.
"If you go more than 16 hours without resting, you become fatigued"
It doesn't say awake
You ignored the first sentence in that paragraph. "Characters require 8 hours of sleep each day." Also later it says "If a character goes more than 16 hours without going to sleep, they become fatigued." It's super clear RAW. It'd be dm fiat to change that to only needing rest.
They say it can make you fatigued. Not that it's automatic.It lists fatigue over a column that lists times: IE, after that amount of time, you're fatigued automatically. It'd have a DC if it was only a possibility. "Particularly hot and cold weather can make creatures fatigued more quickly during overland travel and can cause damage if harsh enough, as shown in Table 10–13." So the more quickly is clearly the time it takes to fatigue.
That's an interpretation. All the adventures I have played were asking you Fortitude checks in such cases and the actual rules don't state specifically that the Condition has to be awarded without any check. That's a GM choice to give it automatically, and I consider that a bad GM choice as it is illogical.
Not what I said: "any activity the Dm rules is strenuous". And it's pretty clear what the requirements are for it in the adjudicating new activities so I wouldn't call it pure dm fiat. Improvising New Activities, Gamemastery Guide pg. 19: "Hustle is a good example of an activity that can’t be done indefinitely, so you can use it as a model for strenuous activities where the PCs are using the equivalent of 2 actions every 6 seconds."
Secondly, hustling has a time limit: "You can Hustle only for a number of minutes equal to your Constitution modifier × 10 (minimum 10 minutes)." It's why I said "Hustle can fatigue in 10 minutes" not 'Hustle fatigues in 10 minutes' as it's con based and the time varies from 10 min to 70 min so if anyone in the party has an 8 or a 10 con, it can trigger in 10 min. Hence, why I said it CAN fatigue in 10 min because it can be only 10 min.
Nothing in there states that the condition has to be applied without any check. Clearly, there's an intent of limiting such activities, but then it's GM choice. Once again, giving the condition without a check is an interpretation, not the only valid one.
Also, as you can't Hustle if you are Fatigued, there's no point in Hustling more than you can if the GM gives the Fatigued condition because of that. So if you read the rules very strictly, it's pointless to push your character beyond its limits so you never end up Fatigued from Hustling.You ignored the first sentence in that paragraph. "Characters require 8 hours of sleep each day." Also later it says "If a character goes more than 16 hours without going to sleep, they become fatigued." It's super clear RAW. It'd be dm fiat to change that to only needing rest.
The sentence "If you go more than 16 hours without resting, you become fatigued" leaves quite some room for interpretation. What "go" means exactly, and what "rest" means is subject to interpretation. Considering that someone can't rest more than 8 hours per day, that you can't oversleep, that by 11PM everyone in the world is Fatigued seems like a wrong interpretation (even if the rules support this interpretation).
Considering that you can rest anytime you want (but that it won't be an 8-hour rest) or that "go" means adventuring and not drinking cocktails by the pool is also an interpretation, one that is less immediate but that doesn't break verisimilitude. So there's also GM interpretation in that case.Maybe the word "GM fiat" is not the good one, but stating that you automatically become Fatigued in all the situations reported by Wren18 is subject to the GM interpretation.
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That's an interpretation. All the adventures I have played were asking you Fortitude checks in such cases and the actual rules don't state specifically that the Condition has to be awarded without any check. That's a GM choice to give it automatically, and I consider that a bad GM choice as it is illogical.
If mine in an interpretation, your DC idea in an invention as there is NO mention of a DC. None. Zero.
Read the Temperature section in the Kingmaker Companion Guide pg. 121
"Temperatures in the Stolen Lands tend to be mild in the spring and autumn. Summer days can be hot, but only very rarely fall into Mild Heat as detailed on Table 10–13. For most of these seasons, temperatures remain in the Normal category and don't particularly impact game play. Winter days, on the other hand, can get cold, and snowfall isn't unheard of (although full-on blizzards are rare). As the PCs make their daily preparations, check to see if the day falls into the category of Mild Cold by attempting a DC 18 flat check (during the months of Kuthona or Calistril) or a DC 16 flat check (during the month of Abadius). On a success, the day ahead is particularly chilly, resulting in characters growing fatigued after only 4 hours of daily activity rather than the normal 8 hours, and if there's light precipitation (see Precipitation above), it includes snow." Note there is NO check for fatigue, just a time limit before it happens because it moves from normal [8hrs] to mild cold [4 hrs].
Or Fatigue, Core Rulebook pg. 517: "Precipitation causes discomfort and fatigue. Anything heavier than drizzle or light snowfall reduces the time it takes for characters to become fatigued from overland travel to only 4 hours." Note no DC, it jus happens.
Nothing in there states that the condition has to be applied without any check. Clearly, there's an intent of limiting such activities, but then it's GM choice. Once again, giving the condition without a check is an interpretation, not the only valid one.
It's not an interpretation to say there isn't a DC because there isn't a DC. Do you assume Sigil has a hidden DC even though none is listed?
Note that every feat/heritages that deals with temperature like Acclimatization, Rimesoul, Inured to the Heat, Ifrit, Badlands Orc, Winter Orc, Desert Elf, Snow Rat, Arctic Elf, Winter Catfolk, Thickcoat Shoony, Forge Dwarf, Snow Goblin, Wintertouched Human, Frozen Wind Kitsune and even the Camel only say "one step less severe" and don't modify any check [as there isn't one]. You'd think with ALL those entries about temperature affects, one would mention a check if there was one. The only checks even close are the ones for weather hazards and the checks are for preparing for the hazard.
The sentence "If you go more than 16 hours without resting, you become fatigued" leaves quite some room for interpretation.
No it really doesn't, when it CLEARLY say sleep in not one but 2 places: ""Characters require 8 hours of sleep each day" and "If a character goes more than 16 hours without going to sleep, they become fatigued" should be enough to clarify any doubt about rest means sleep.
So there's also GM interpretation in that case.
If you mean the dm can houserule it differently than the rules then yes, they can. I know that's what I'd think any DM doing so was doing when they'd say 'sleep doesn't actually mean sleep, so ignore those 2 sentences in the rules.'
Maybe the word "GM fiat" is not the good one, but stating that you automatically become Fatigued in all the situations reported by Wren18 is subject to the GM interpretation.
You and I clearly disagree on what an interpretation means.
"Particularly hot and cold weather can make creatures fatigued more quickly during overland travel and can cause damage if harsh enough, as shown in Table 10–13." So the more quickly is clearly the time it takes to fatigue.What I don't understand in this table at all is where this 'default' 8 hours of travel causes fatigue comes from. Why 8? I can't find anything like this anywhere else in the book. We have that 16 hours without sleep causes fatigue, but where 8 hours come from?
It's in Core Rulebook pg. 517, Table 10–13: Normal Temperature is listed as 33º F to 94º F (1º C to 34º C), 8 hours of overland travel before fatigue and no damage. Mild to extreme temps drop the time to fatigue to 4 hrs and incredible drop it to 2 hrs.
No it really doesn't, when it CLEARLY say sleep in not one but 2 places: ""Characters require 8 hours of sleep each day" and "If a character goes more than 16 hours without going to sleep, they become fatigued" should be enough to clarify any doubt about rest means sleep.
Ok, I've found why there's a disagreement, the rules are not in line.
You use this page: https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=534I used this one: https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=472
So our disagreement comes from an issue in the rules.
Also, considering that an adventurer goes Fatigued after 16 hours without sleeping when a normal human needs more than that (and the average teenager can easily last 24 hours), I consider that the proper rule is the one speaking about rest and not sleep.
About Temperature, I've read the rules in detail and I must admit they don't make much sense. I don't understand why they are linked to overland travel as they should be separated: Freezing cold is tiring whatever you do. Unless they consider that cold comes with Snow and things like that I don't see why it would affect how long you can travel overland.
Also, overland travel is not defined. Because travelling on roads is not the same than travelling in the wilderness and the numbers are the ones I'd use for travelling in the wilderness (as anyone with a little bit of physical training shouldn't have much issue walking on a road for more than 8 hours).
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My overall impression is that these rules are not really well defined. Partly for obvious reasons: No one wants to read 2 pages of rules about sleep deprivation and travelling in a forest because these are not the interesting parts of adventuring. But even besides that, they are unclear as to how they should work.
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Second, from there: "Fortitude saving throws allow you to reduce the effects of abilities and afflictions that can debilitate the body."But you should always get Fortitude saves to avoid Fatigued condition.Where are you getting that idea from?
"From there" *points vaguely and quotes text with no citation*.
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Fortitude saving throws allow you to reduce the effects of abilities and afflictions that can debilitate the body. They use your Constitution modifier and are calculated as shown in the formula below.
Fortitude save result = d20 roll + Constitution modifier + proficiency bonus + other bonuses + penalties
Sorry, nothing in there guarantees that you are always allowed a Fortitude save to avoid the Fatigued condition.
What that is, is general guidance on when the game rules are going to allow a Fortitude save. So if the GM is having to create an effect and a defense against it on the fly because of something creative that one of the players came up with, they can fall back on this.
So yes, generally if an effect is going to apply the Fatigued condition, a Fortitude save to resist it is very likely appropriate. But that doesn't mean that the GM should be inserting a Fortitude save into printed official rules that apply the Fatigued condition and don't have a save listed.
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Hustle can fatigue in 10 minutes as can any activity the Dm rules is strenuous [IE, would be 2 actions per turn in combat].
-Deciding to hustle for plot reasons (party choice, but pressured with the deaths of innocents)Yep, 10 min of it can cause fatigue.
If I have a Constitution modifier of 3 and say that I am using Hustle for 20 minutes, and then you tell me that I become Fatigued after 10 minutes, I am going to tell you that you aren't following the rules. The GM doesn't get to rule that a printed activity is strenuous - only an improvised one.
If I instead say that I want to Hustle for 40 minutes, you are within your rights to tell me that I can only Hustle for 30 minutes and then have to stop. You could also offer a ruling to allow me to Hustle for another 10 minutes with the penalty of becoming Fatigued - and then I can make the decision to either stop after 30 minutes or Hustle for 40 minutes and accept the Fatigued condition. It is a bit of a houserule, but it is reasonable.
Similarly, if there is a Wizard in the party with a Constitution modifier of 0, you can tell us that the party needs to stop using Hustle after 10 minutes. And can offer to let us keep going at the cost of Fatigue.
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A group in exploration mode can attempt to rest, but they aren’t entirely safe from danger, and their rest might be interrupted. The 8 hours of rest do not need to be consecutive, however, and after an interruption, characters can go back to sleep.
If you go more than 16 hours without resting, you become fatigued (you cannot recover from this until you rest at least 6 continuous hours).
So, I'm glad I have official backing for my view on sleep and watches. Basically, as long as you get your 8 hours, you're ok, even if they're interrupted. The only time you have a set condition of continual hours is if you've pushed yourself with over sixteen hours without rest, in which case you need six hours in a row.
It's because the Barbarian is basically the Ultimate Warrior. They're tough and shrug off damage exceptionally well but get gassed if forced to fight matches longer than 10 minutes.
10 rounds, you mean.
10 rounds, you mean.
Well, yes.
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One round = 6 seconds, 10 rounds = 60 seconds.
So they're tough and shrug off damage exceptionally well but get gassed if forced to fight matches longer than 1 minute.
Hustle can fatigue in 10 minutes as can any activity the Dm rules is strenuous [IE, would be 2 actions per turn in combat].
-Deciding to hustle for plot reasons (party choice, but pressured with the deaths of innocents)Yep, 10 min of it can cause fatigue.If I have a Constitution modifier of 3 and say that I am using Hustle for 20 minutes, and then you tell me that I become Fatigued after 10 minutes, I am going to tell you that you aren't following the rules. The GM doesn't get to rule that a printed activity is strenuous - only an improvised one.
If I instead say that I want to Hustle for 40 minutes, you are within your rights to tell me that I can only Hustle for 30 minutes and then have to stop. You could also offer a ruling to allow me to Hustle for another 10 minutes with the penalty of becoming Fatigued - and then I can make the decision to either stop after 30 minutes or Hustle for 40 minutes and accept the Fatigued condition. It is a bit of a houserule, but it is reasonable.
Similarly, if there is a Wizard in the party with a Constitution modifier of 0, you can tell us that the party needs to stop using Hustle after 10 minutes. And can offer to let us keep going at the cost of Fatigue.
Hustle has clear limits, so going over them should have consequences [the guidelines suggest "might have limited use or cause fatigue". As such, I don't see guideline suggestions as a pure houseruling for picking the second option after the first is exceeded. Even if you don't agree, the Dm ruled as such and it then shouldn't have been a surprise when it happened a SECOND time. Also note that a group bases it's hustle on the LOWEST con in the group.
Those guidelines are only for improvised activities.
Hustle is not an improvised activity. Without houserules, you are simply not able to Hustle longer than the lowest Con bonus of the group allows. In no case does it cause Fatigued.
And if you don't agree with the GMs rulings or houserules, then that is a different problem entirely.