Is Starfinder going to be following in PF2E's footsteps regarding species attribute arrays?


General Discussion


So the latest errata for PF2e has established an optional rule for all ancestries to take +2/+2 to any attribute at character creation without penalty, as an alternative to their previous published arrays.

This has sparked significant discussion & debate over in the PF2e general discussion forum, especially with the combined rule change that the optional flaw system, while still available, no longer grants a bonus & just exists for flavor now. Feel free to go skim those threads for details as I lack the energy to recount the debates over here.

But the question I have for the Starfinder dev team is, with the stated intention of this change being to address concerns of bio-essentialism, introducing nuance into pf2e's ancestries to "show they aren't a monolith", and the unstated but clearly implied bit of simply opening up all class options to all races without feeling like one is being deficient at one's role, is this something that will be implemented in Starfinder as well?

More broadly and for the room, I ask; does Starfinder's science fiction, space opera nature create enough disconnect between the playable species & real life people & cultures that bio-essentialism is less of a concern? Or does Starfinder's vast setting with near limitless potential environmental conditions to have shaped any member of any species apart from their "core" culture, mean that casting them as monolithic is even more egregious than in a contained fantasy world like Lost Omens Golarion?

Is Starfinder's math capable of accomodating a change like this? Presumably in SF the change would be to +2 to any attribute like humans enjoy rather than +2/+2 as that's Starfinder's baseline. Still, I'm constantly told how tight Starfinder's math is so one questions whether a change like this would be particularly disruptive to the meta.


The main time it'd have some friction would probably be just stelliferas, so would be probably a "fine" rule in Starfinder.

I wouldn't be surprised if it takes a long time or never for such a thing to end up in Starfinder, simply because the game has a lot less attention to it.

Like, if they wanted to, they probably could have put it in Interspecies.


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I think there's a few points where star finder as a system has less need to do this

For starters, the math isn't so incredibly tight. If you're missing a +1 on a hit you can make it up with a flank or weapon focus, if you're missing +1 on a skill there's your theme or an augmentation or a tool kit.

Second starfinders freeer point buy already allows you to do this already. The order of operations is point buy apply species then nothing above 18, so a ysoki can throw all 10 points into strength and start off able to arm wrestle any vesk in the universe*. Strength becomes a species trend, not an individual limit.

*I did this on my Operative/Blitz soldier. She acquired the nickname murdermouse. With good reason.

Going to +2 instead of +2 +2 -2 would feel like a nerf to many/most characters. but if its an option I wouldn't mind it that much. Being able to dump a stat I don't want , even a little, gives me more breathing room to pick up other areas to concentrate on without becomming PF1s point buy full house of 3 7s and 2 18s. (go fish)

Wouldn't that be a straight upgrade to humans?

As I've pointed out in building guides, in starfinder you want a species that has a bonus to the thing you want to do is more important than the penalized stat which is more important than the bump stat.

So the opposite of bio essentialism would be what, the blank slate?

Wayfinders

What a telepathic mobile fungal colony finds culturally egregious is likely very different than what humans find culturally egregious. I find it more culturally egregious to force human standards on other species. That's what I love about playing new species Starfinder, it makes you think completely outside the human box.

Second Seekers (Luwazi Elsebo)

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

One of things people talk about often with Starfinder character creation is that the +1 to an Ability granted from your Theme almost doesn't matter, since (outside of a handful of feat prereqs) there's little difference between an odd or an even Ability score. (Assuming your Theme Ability +1 gets added onto an already-even Ability score, anyways.)

I haven't finished my coffee or really thought about this hard, so the math may not work, but: instead of SF getting a +2/+2/-0 stat array you can plop onto any species like PF2, what if it was +2/+1/-0? That way, the +1 from the new Stat Array, and the +1 from your Theme, could be used in concert to reach a new Ability Score Modifier, or you could apply the two +1s differently for more breadth? IDK, just thinking out loud about Starfinder things.

Wayfinders

I'd rather see Themes get +2 over everyone gets +2/+2/-0
or rather see +2/+2/-2 over +2/+2/-0. I find flaws equally interesting in RP as strengths.

+4/+2/-2/-2 for a Contemplative seems more than fair for a giant skull-less floating brain with an emaciated body.


Kishmo wrote:
instead of SF getting a +2/+2/-0 stat array you can plop onto any species like PF2, what if it was +2/+1/-0? That way, the +1 from the new Stat Array, and the +1 from your Theme, could be used in concert to reach a new Ability Score Modifier, or you could apply the two +1s differently for more breadth? IDK, just thinking out loud about Starfinder things.

Then the point from your them would barely matter , as long as it winds up somewhere you put points into it. For example if you have a ysoki envoy with a

8 Str
14 Dex
10 con
14 int
10 wis
16 charisma

That would be doable with a dex int or charisma theme

I have to say that pf2s not just giving me the points to play with was a huge turn off. Don't tell me alchemists have to have an uber int make me want the 18 there and be happy for it.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I will say I don't think as some others have said, it really makes that big of a difference since it just changes your base scores, and then you have a bunch of points to spend over the top of it, you don't have a limited number of combination of arrangements of boosts like you do in pathfinder, it is just a pool of points for you to allocate. This just sets a baseline, and that is helpful to set a 'basic' flavor for the species.

I hope they don't... in part because I think a big part of Science Fiction/Science Fantasy such as what for me StarFinder fits, is the Niche that there are people out there that are NOT-HUMAN. (Spoiler here: I a the current author is Human[-ish]) People, that are different, and Alien, not just in the 'not from around here definition', but with drastically different base axiomatic natures, whether that is from cultural aspects, or physiological aspects (like being aquatic, amphibious, or even capable of flight, or incapable of normal sight as a species)

I don't want a player to have to advance multiple levels into their adventuring career to differentiate themselves and their nature from the human in the party. I think that if someone chooses to play an alien similar to a Dralasite, they shouldn't just be just like a human with the ability to squeeze in small place if need be at first level. If they are aquatic they should need a space suit/or armor with environmental protection to be in air. (which that's fine if for many things might be that easy to remedy) But I don't see a problem with sometimes having options of requiring an aquatic squid race to actually need a powered armor to operate on land as they don't normally 'stand'.

Obviously, if some ancestry provides a stronger weakness, it will probably be balanced with something else granted to them being stronger. The given squid-like species may have faster swim speed or other ability. But my hope is that StarFinder doesn't constrain the starting points of their ancestries like we have seen largely happen with Pathfinder.

I will say for me... StarFinder is the example of the game where inclusivity needs to present that two people who are ABSOLUTELY and UNDENIABLY very different can still be treated and consider as fundamentally equal within the game even though their abilities in various things are NOT the same.

I think they aren't likely to make a similar 'default' attribute array for all Ancestries in StarFinder however, as some of effectively pay attribute points for other abilities as I recall so might either absolutely gimp an ancestry, or potentially make it overpowered by activating a similar everything can pick + 2 to any two attributes as a default.


Ability quick pick already exists. It's not an SFS-legal option, but it's balanced imo.

For species traits, I don't care if someone wants to reskin an existing species into something else, as long as the mechanical benefits are the same.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Personally, I find Starfinder's character generation more flexible and less dependent on ancestry/race/species or background/theme than PF2. For example: It is possible for a contemplative (-2 Str, -2 Con, +4 Int, +2 Cha) solarian to start with an 18 Str in Starfinder*, but it is not possible for even an ancestry with a +2 Str to start with an 18 Str as a thaumaturge in PF2 (the best is 16 Str).

Again personally, I would probably be more comfortable with 12 points to distribute at 1st level in Starfinder character creation, rather than 10; just to be able to spread out the points a bit more. PF2 requires more planning between ancestry, background, and class to determine starting ability scores and feels much more constrained; both because the choices have more of an impact and because of the tighter system math.

Re: themes

One of the design considerations for the themes in Starfinder was that they should not be a major mechanical boost. A given theme should be basically appropriate to pretty much any race/species and class combination, depending on the character's background/concept/goals; otherwise, we'd get themes becoming "must have" choices for specific "builds."

*- granted, a solarian with 10 Dex and 8 Con is likely not the most survivable character

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