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I've got a group that has played together for about 10 years. There are 4 of us that have been around since that first year and we have always had 2 or 3 other players to fill out the table. It seams like we lose about 1 player every year or so, but we have always been able to recruit someone to keep a full table.
One of our original players has always been a bit off putting. Let's just say he likes stirring the pot and this tendency has grown over the years. Let's call him Bob.
A couple months back one of our players that has been with us a few years dropped out. He didn't say it directly, but indicated that he just isn't having fun anymore because of Bob always stirring the pot.
We got a replacement player, but the new guy has very directly indicated that he is not sure he can deal with Bob and may have to quit.
Recently another player that has been with us for a couple years has informed me that he doesn't enjoy playing with Bob. He hasn't officially quit but has started finding other things to do on game nights and is missing sessions regularly.
I'm worried that this group is falling apart. I don't think it's feasible to kick Bob out but I'm worried about being able to recruit more players with Bob around. Not sure what to do.
Has anyone had a similar experience? What did you do? Any advice?
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Bob has killed your group. Give it up.
Ouch. Accurate, but ouch.
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Sometimes the fastest way to heal is just to rip the bandaid off.
You might want to convene a pizza night with all the other old-timers and see if they're interested in regrouping and creating a new gaming group without Bob.
Not a discussion of 'how to deal with Bob'. But a 'now that the old group is dead, do we want to keep gaming together' discussion.
That's a good way to frame it.
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The issue with giving Bob "another" chance is Bob has already been given that chance, multiple times. They've been gaming together for 10 years.
Bob has driven away multiple players.
By the OP's own words "Let's just say he likes stirring the pot and this tendency has grown over the years", Bob knows exactly what he's doing.
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Bob is Bob and that's never going to change.
Another issue is that we went through almost the exact same thing about 4 years ago. The original founder of the group had grown increasingly belligerent. After many casual comments to him about his behavior were ignored, we essentially had a group intervention. It got ugly.
After that experience we are all a little gun shy.
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People already gave the good pithy advice, so forgive Auntie DQ as she sits down and gives you a good ramble:
First, sit and hold this in your mind: no matter what happens, someone's feelings are going to be hurt. Whether you do nothing or do something to try to keep your group together, you are not going to avoid someone getting hurt--and this is just life being life.
It's not your fault, but one thing that you need to try to absorb is that if you do nothing, more hurt will occur, not less. Understand that avoiding a confrontation with Bob or a discussion with the group or anything else related to this is going to do more damage than not avoiding it.
Second, a significant subsection of gamers are poorly socialized and/or have compatriots who are poorly socialized. Especially when we are younger we hang out with folks who don't behave so well, and being younger we might just say, "Well, that's just how Bob is," and don't know how to nip toxic friendships or playerships in the bud, or think we have to tolerate being hurt or annoyed because we don't want to lose relationships (which is absolutely not true, but gamers as a subculture don't tend to know how to deal with this well). Further, I'd wager the vast majority of us know how it feels to be bullied. So we feel terrified of ostracizing or pushing out someone--even if that person is legitimately toxic--because we are afraid of "becoming the bully." So we end up looping into our friends circles people who can really destroy relationships let alone pretendy fun gaming times because we're terrified of being "the bad guy" in making us leave.
As we get older and hopefully more experienced in the world, we start to see toxic behaviors for what they are, and can realize sometimes what we thought was a friendship or comradeship when we were younger is really a toxic connection. Also, sometimes only some people grow up and others don't. What seemed hilarious 10 years ago can become disgusting now. This is called growing up. Once you realize a relationship is toxic, it is time to end it. Period. (And I will note: this has happened to me. Indeed, I can think of folks I used to play with in college and in my 20s who seemed to be fine friends, but then I started realizing how bad I often felt during our gameplay sessions, and that their brand of "teasing" I actually felt really hurt by. I walked away. I found other people to play with who were kind and super fun. I have zero regrets.)
Repeat to yourself: friends hold friends accountable for their actions. Friends protect their friends from people who constantly hurt or get a rise out of them. And dismissing or cutting toxic people out of your life is not bullying, it is taking care of yourself and your real friends.
Third, you are not alone in this. Bob's actions have been affecting a whole group of people. I strongly suggest talking to both the current group members as well as those who have left, listening to their concerns and taking their suggestions about what to do. Acknowledge the people who have felt hurt/irritated by Bob and make sure they know you see them, sympathize, and that you want to have your backs (at least if you can say these things genuinely). You don't have to follow every suggestion (and different suggestions may conflict) but it's good for you to understand that this is about all of you, and good for them to understand you think their thoughts and feelings are important (which they may be doubting if you tolerate Bob and would allow them to leave in seeming preference for him staying).
Fourth, yes, you need to have a talk with Bob, and if he doesn't agree to cool off--and given this has gone on for 10 years and he has only gotten worse, this is highly unlikely--then it's time for Bob to go. Note: I do think it is important to offer this, not necessarily to be nice, but (a) give Bob a chance to self-reflect, however small it will work, and (b) so if he complains to others that you kicked him out "unfairly" you can rest assured all chances were given and did the right thing. If he refuses to change, or says he will change and then doesn't, it's time to ask him to go.
It's important when the time comes to ask him to leave to say that to say it clearly and hold firm. He is tearing your group apart, and doing nothing and or working to keep him is causing you essentially to prioritize a toxic actor in your group over the other players who, I presume, are actually far more pleasant to be around and play with. Who you spend time with reflects your own character. Be sure that the people you are with are the people you are proud to know and be around.
It will be hard to do this because yes, Bob's gotten away with this for 10 years. But it's important to acknowledge things that you and others have changed, and that what may have at one time seemed okay behavior is definitely not where you and the others are in your life. It is okay to cut someone you've known a long time out if they are not contributing to a valuable relationship (whether that relationship is close friend or simply gamer acquaintance).
Finally, kicking Bob out may in fact be the best thing that ever happens to Bob. People need boundaries and people need to be held accountable to be productive contributors to their friends, families, gaming groups, workplaces, and society. It's true, he may never learn and always be that jerk nobody really wants to play with and only find ways into groups too afraid to tell him what an assclown he is. But it's also possible that getting shown the door helps him realize that he needs to check himself and start doing better. You're not responsible for whatever happens to Bob, but understand that asking him to go isn't a hurtful act--it's a helpful one for all involved, including him.
ETA: Just saw your most recent post. I understand being gunshy after another confrontation getting ugly. But do you feel better off without the guy who got nasty? I would hope so. Sometimes unfortunately unpleasant experiences lead to better outcomes.
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Bob is Bob and that's never going to change.
Another issue is that we went through almost the exact same thing about 4 years ago. The original founder of the group had grown increasingly belligerent. After many casual comments to him about his behavior were ignored, we essentially had a group intervention. It got ugly.
After that experience we are all a little gun shy.
The lesson to learn here is “don’t let things fester,” not “avoid confronting the jerks you play with.”
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I want to clarify that Bob isn't a huge jerk. He can be annoying and tiresome.
He is very political, very outspoken, and very poorly informed. At least once a week he goes off about something he heard a fringe political pundit opine about. He will take an already skewed story that he only partially listened to and take it to a whole new level.
In today's charged political environment it gets tiresome.
I really don't want to kick him out because of his politics. In fact, myself and the other two "old timers" often consider it an asset to have a diverse set of views in our social group. I'm not sure if the others would even be on board with removing Bob. They are both very fun reasonable guys. Bob can be a great guy to have around sometimes. But his confrontational and ill informed conspiracy theories have worn thin.
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I want to thank everyone for their feedback and advice. I appreciate it very much.
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I want to clarify that Bob isn't a huge jerk. He can be annoying and tiresome.
He is very political, very outspoken, and very poorly informed. At least once a week he goes off about something he heard a fringe political pundit opine about. He will take an already skewed story that he only partially listened to and take it to a whole new level.
In today's charged political environment it gets tiresome.
I really don't want to kick him out because of his politics. In fact, myself and the other two "old timers" often consider it an asset to have a diverse set of views in our social group. I'm not sure if the others would even be on board with removing Bob. They are both very fun reasonable guys. Bob can be a great guy to have around sometimes. But his confrontational and ill informed conspiracy theories have worn thin.
If Bob is saying things that upsets people, and they are leaving because he can't keep his mouth shut, and he has been warned about it, and he still chooses to say things he knows will upset people, then he is a huge jerk. People don't leave groups because someone sometimes says something they disagree with. People leave groups because someone is toxic. People are leaving. Bob is toxic. And you have chosen to make excuses for him than prioritize the needs of your other players who are, presumably, less toxic. And you are enabling him, meaning his behavior will continue to get worse.
It sounds like you have chosen to prioritize Bob over the rest of your gaming group. I wish you the best of luck with your two player gaming group.
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I've been very lucky where this sort of thing is concerned. In my almost four decades of playing I've never had to ask a player to leave, but did give a couple of them a choice between not being an ass or they could go home and play by themselves. One got pretty offensive once and kept asking me to describe, in detail, what the prostitute his character picked up did to him because he "wanted to make sure he got his money's worth out of her". I told him that was his only warning and he straightened up. The other is a current player who is, quite simply, so annoying that no one wants to game with him but he's the driver for another group member who has had five very severe strokes in the last fifteen or so years and is not allowed to drive presently. They live two and a half hours away and is therefore necessary to get our friend to the games and that's the only reason we've kept him around. He's not really offensive but just blathers on about things that absolutely no one has any interest in and doesn't matter a whit what's going on the game during those moments. This past Saturday right in the middle of a combat sequence he started to tell a Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky joke, something that hasn't been topical or even funny in over 25 years. I put a stop to that after the first sentence.
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I want to clarify that Bob isn't a huge jerk.Based on what you've said before and after, this is a lie.
Yeah, totally not a jerk.
He is very political, very outspoken, and very poorly informed. At least once a week he goes off about something he heard a fringe political pundit opine about. He will take an already skewed story that he only partially listened to and take it to a whole new level.
I really don't want to kick him outThen why did you waste your's and our time making this thread then if you weren't planning on doing anything about the situation?
I'm not sure if the others would even be on board with removing Bob.
Then you've lied and others are leaving for reasons completely separate from Bob?
Either you kick Bob and reform the group or you keep him and continue to lose everyone else since he is now more important than them.
Bob is the issue, don't try and backpedal and claim he's not all of a sudden.
If your other/former/potential players come and see this thread all your showing them is you will bend over backwards to defend some hateful jerk, you don't care about them, only Bob. Your "group" is neither comfortable or safe to game in.
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Wow. That escalated quickly.
It's a frought situation. People are rarely a single thing. Bad people can do good things. Caring and helpful friends can also become obnoxious. 80% to 90% of the time he is a good guy to have around. But that remaining percentage of the time he is obnoxious. This usually works out to about 15 to 20 minutes a game session dealing with him being annoying.
People have busy lives and lots of options for fun things to do. Going into an evening being pretty certain your are going to be annoyed for 15 or 20 minutes makes the other options look better.
When he annoys me with the stupid things he says I chew his ass out and he either shuts up or tones it down. Not everyone is comfortable doing that and there is no reason they should have to.
But in the gaming community I've met a lot of people with poor interpersonal skills. People with odd personalities. People with poor insight into their behaviors.
I know Bob is the problem and I know something needs to be done. I am fairly certain it will lead to an old friend feeling rejected by people he trusts, becoming angry and defensive and probably storming off. I'll probably lose an old friend over this. I've known from the beginning that this would probably be the way it would go. I just wanted to explore all the possible options before I made the move.
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I want to clarify that Bob isn't a huge jerk. He can be annoying and tiresome.
He is very political, very outspoken, and very poorly informed. At least once a week he goes off about something he heard a fringe political pundit opine about. He will take an already skewed story that he only partially listened to and take it to a whole new level.
In today's charged political environment it gets tiresome.
I really don't want to kick him out because of his politics. In fact, myself and the other two "old timers" often consider it an asset to have a diverse set of views in our social group. I'm not sure if the others would even be on board with removing Bob. They are both very fun reasonable guys. Bob can be a great guy to have around sometimes. But his confrontational and ill informed conspiracy theories have worn thin.
Your desire to hear "diverse perspectives" has, as established, cost you 3 other players, and the 'conspiracy theories' such pundits like to espouse often lead to tangible harm for the most at-risk in our society. I'm very willing to call this guy a jerk for the conduct you're gesturing at, and I don't really understanding coming to his defense after making a whole thread about how poorly he behaves. Putting his feelings above those of others has already made problems for you, your other friends, and your ex-tablemates.
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...He is very political, very outspoken, and very poorly informed. At least once a week he goes off about something he heard a fringe political pundit opine about. He will take an already skewed story that he only partially listened to and take it to a whole new level....
This has become a sadly common issue in this day and age. I have always enjoyed discussing politics, and generally used to find that people's views were complex and often didn't fit with stereotypes or party politics. 10 years ago, I think the vast vast majority could have a civil discussion, and go enjoy a beverage together afterwards.
In the last few years, that tragically seems to have changed. There are fundamental aspects of reality that some refuse to accept. Discussing rational beliefs can be enlightening, but arguing about basic reality is just infuriating! Many people avoid discussing politics because it is likely to devolve into a debate about whether the sun revolves around the Earth.
I wish I had some great advice for your situation, but my games were often dysfunctional s!@!shows. We had some great times, but also many wasted nights of arguments and weirdness. In hindsight, I probably could have had a lot more fun at a different table. The most insightful thing I can say is that what is going on with "Bob" is a much more broad issue then you can be expected to fix or deal with. There is a national (and international) wave that is breaking now, and your group is being affected.
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This has become a sadly common issue in this day and age. I have always enjoyed discussing politics, and generally used to find that people's views were complex and often didn't fit with stereotypes or party politics. 10 years ago, I think the vast vast majority could have a civil discussion, and go enjoy a beverage together afterwards.
This is really the issue. I'm glad someone understands where I'm coming from.
I talked to one of the other original players. I'll call him Big J. He claimed to be unaware of the issue. Not sure how that is possible, but he is one of those super open minded accepting people so maybe it really doesn't bother him. He said he couldn't bring himself to kick Bob out of the group. He also said that Bob needs people that will confront him and challenge him. Without us, he doesn't really have anyone that will do that.
I think if I pushed the issue, Big J wouldn't stop me from kicking Bob out but it may cause even more strife. Big J offered a compromise. We are laying down a strict "No Politics" rule at the table. This should remove most of Bob's outlets for annoying people. I am dubious, but I feel like it is a reasonable compromise. It works as both a warning and a partial muzzle. If it turns out not being sufficient, then we may go on to removal.
Once again, thanks to all of you for your input. Some of it was hard to hear, but all of it gave me additional insight and direction. It was appreciated.
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We are laying down a strict "No Politics" rule at the table. This should remove most of Bob's outlets for annoying people. I am dubious, but I feel like it is a reasonable compromise. It works as both a warning and a partial muzzle. If it turns out not being sufficient, then we may go on to removal.
If I could make suggestion, I'd recommend a modification to your rule and take it further: No political discussion at the table gaming location. Period.
If I was in the group, and Bob was espousing offensive "political" opinions at the location before or after the game, I'm not going to want to share a gaming session with him at all. By firmly stating no politics at the location -- and firmly enforcing it -- you'll hopefully eliminate any wiggle room and/or boundary testing.
Just my suggestion. Good luck, and I hope it goes well for the group.
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I misspoke (or miswrote). The rule was actually no politics on game night. We often have dinner together beforehand, so this was necessary. But now that you mention it, that should also cover any parting shots after the game is over.
Thanks for the well wishes!
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We are laying down a strict "No Politics" rule at the table. This should remove most of Bob's outlets for annoying people. I am dubious, but I feel like it is a reasonable compromise. It works as both a warning and a partial muzzle. If it turns out not being sufficient, then we may go on to removal.If I could make suggestion, I'd recommend a modification to your rule and take it further: No political discussion at the
tablegaming location. Period.If I was in the group, and Bob was espousing offensive "political" opinions at the location before or after the game, I'm not going to want to share a gaming session with him at all. By firmly stating no politics at the location -- and firmly enforcing it -- you'll hopefully eliminate any wiggle room and/or boundary testing.
Just my suggestion. Good luck, and I hope it goes well for the group.
This is a good idea. Also, enforcement is critical if it is to work. I would worry that if Bob likes to get a rise out of people it could backfire but hopefully since you've talked to other members of the group that will help.
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I had to put a "No politics, no religion" order as the number one rule at my games. None. Period.
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I really don't want to kick him out because of his politics. In fact, myself and the other two "old timers" often consider it an asset to have a diverse set of views in our social group. I'm not sure if the others would even be on board with removing Bob. They are both very fun reasonable guys. Bob can be a great guy to have around sometimes. But his confrontational and ill informed conspiracy theories have worn thin.
I'm one of the GMs in my group. I know for a fact that opinions in the group differ when it comes to politics. As soon as anyone brings up politics during one of my sessions I shut that down. "No politics, please, I'm here to have fun" is something I've said a few times as soon as it was brought up. After those few times the group knows not to bring up politics in my house. And yes, this goes for political opinions with which I agree.
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I had a player like Bob, what I did was have him come over an hour before everyone else to help set up so he could get out all his rambling before everyone else came over so by the time the game started he was all good.
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He also said that Bob needs people that will confront him and challenge him. Without us, he doesn't really have anyone that will do that.
I've got a few questions: Is this the purpose of your game nights? Do the other players you recruit to replace your losses know that they're signing up for this? When Bob goes on these rants, are the "old-timers" who are hesitant to cut ties with him ever the targets of his ire?