When is Marshal not worth it?

[ThatGuyDM]

Considering this archetype on a few characters who could get it, but it's not as smooth as it could be. Which of these issues would you say disqualifies Marshal from consideration, mechanically?

-You have to spend a general feat first.
-You have access to Bard MC, but also have other 1-action activities, like Lay on Hands, Battle Medicine, or Demoralize
-You have an ancestry with a charisma flaw
-Diplomacy isn't a skill you can prioritize

All of this assumes you want Inspiring aura ASAP.

[Castilliano]

I'm unsure I've grasped the gist of what you're asking with:
"Which of these would you say merits another archetype, mechanically?"
As in you're pretty certain you want an Archetype, just don't know how Marshal stacks up?

The strength of Marshal, as well as of other Archetypes, varies a lot depending on even more factors than those listed, i.e. party composition.
A Bard will overshadow the Stance, and the 10' radius won't reach many allies if you or they are out skirmishing. Your PC will have to willing to get in the thick of battle (unless surrounded by archers or something esoteric like that). Party composition matters so much that I'd say many Archetypes are better on an individual level and Marshal's only good when there's party synergy (and if there's synergy with the later feats, then it's tremendous).

I prefer Bard MCD if I already have the Cha (and not otherwise), though yeah, I'd map out typical rounds to see if my PC can spare the 1-action. Also might prefer Medic if PC's into Battle Medicine (especially if they have few or no Flourish options).

To rely on meeting the DC, you kinda need to prioritize Diplomacy for that aura, so skip Marshal if you can't do that (and want it mainly for that aura that is).

[ThatGuyDM]

Yup, pretty much! Just wanted to see if Marshal is competitive given certain constraints.

With Bard's Inspire Courage, I'm torn because on the one hand the whole party (myself every so often) uses attack rolls, *but* we also have a psychic that can hand out status bonuses to attack rolls too with either Heroism or an amped guidance; the latter won't help anyone crit, however, as it only applies to failures.

My typical turns are Cast a Spell, 1 action for free. Between strides, steps, LoH, Battle Medicine, Demoralize, Elemental Toss, and Raise a Shield (since the healing requires being adjacent to allies and closer to enemies), I don't know if Inspire Courage could fit in. Do you think it'd be an optimal choice, given all that?

[gesalt]

ThatGuyDM wrote:

Yup, pretty much! Just wanted to see if Marshal is competitive given certain constraints.

With Bard's Inspire Courage, I'm torn because on the one hand the whole party (myself every so often) uses attack rolls, *but* we also have a psychic that can hand out status bonuses to attack rolls too with either Heroism or an amped guidance; the latter won't help anyone crit, however, as it only applies to failures.

My typical turns are Cast a Spell, 1 action for free. Between strides, steps, LoH, Battle Medicine, Demoralize, Elemental Toss, and Raise a Shield (since the healing requires being adjacent to allies and closer to enemies), I don't know if Inspire Courage could fit in. Do you think it'd be an optimal choice, given all that?

You can pretty easily fit in lingering inspire turn 1 and do whatever afterward. No reason to use it every turn

[HumbleGamer]

There are several reasons marshal arche type may end up not being worth.

Quote:

- there's already a bard in your party.

- you have a ranged dps that would also benefit from a +1 hit.

- you play with characters that need to flank to get the flat footed condition, rather, than being adjacent or next to you.

- you want to use a different stance for your character.

- you lack skills and don't want to waste points in intimidation or diplomacy.

- you don't want to get other marshal feats, finding yourself blocked, not being able to take a second dedication.

I think this is all you have to consider.

One of the few good archetypes, because it passively boost your damage in a passive way though.

[graystone]

HumbleGamer wrote:

it passively boost your damage in a passive way though.

Hmmmm... "passively boost your damage in a passive way"... That quite zen, like the sound of one hand clapping.

[HumbleGamer]

graystone wrote:

HumbleGamer wrote:

it passively boost your damage in a passive way though.

Hmmmm... "passively boost your damage in a passive way"... That quite zen, like the sound of one hand clapping.

The sound of one hand clapping... passively...

I should have just said " It's one of the stronger archetypes out there because of the passive power creep it provides" :D

[graystone]

HumbleGamer wrote:

graystone wrote:

HumbleGamer wrote:

it passively boost your damage in a passive way though.

Hmmmm... "passively boost your damage in a passive way"... That quite zen, like the sound of one hand clapping.

The sound of one hand clapping... passively...

I should have just said " It's one of most strong archetypes uout there because of the passive power creep it provides" :D

LOL that makes it both more understandable and less intriguing. ;)

[Lucerious]

One of my players is using the marshal archetype for his fighter. He uses the Inspiring Marshal Stance at the onset of every fight, but due to the diplomacy check involved has failed on one encounter to successfully enact the stance. He has not really gotten any use out of any other feat the archetype has available, though, and is looking to break out into another archetype as soon as possible with a possible retrain out of marshal.
The +1 status bonus to attacks the Inspiring Marshal Stance provides for him is great, but the character rarely is in a position where the aura covers more than just him due simply to the chaos of combat.
I overall think the archetype is a bit anemic, but still a potentially good option if no one else in the party can provide status bonuses to attacks.

[Sanityfaerie]

Other stuff that matters...

- Do you have some other use for your stance slot?
- Are you likely to crit regularly, and do you ahve other ways of exploiting intimidation (Dread Marshal only)

But yeah - the big thing seems to be that you reliably be within a step or two of multiple other party members, all in melee. There are party compositions and party optimization where that is totally the thing you do, and for that, Marshal is great. At that point, it could easily be worthwhile for the party to have *two* marshals, one for each stance. If that's not all lining up, though, it's not amazing.

Like... if things like Back to Back and Topple Foe are going to be triggering regularly, then Marshal is *fantastic*. If they're not... then not so much. Champions tend to work well in very similar environments, actually.