Wizard / Magus spellbook


Rules Discussion


Can a Wizard or Magus write into his spellbook a spell he does not yet know? Maybe he picked up a scroll or something somewhere, he hasn't had time to learn the spell, but he wants to copy it into his spell book planning to learn it later. Or must all the spells in his spellbook be spells he has learned (either through advancing through the levels or by going through the "learn a spell" routine in game)?


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Writing a spell into your spellbook is the same as learning the spell and should be done with the Learn a Spell activity.

I don't think there's a rule saying you can't learn spells of a higher level than you can cast. I also don't see a problem with allowing it.


I think you can also find spellbooks that contain spells that you don't know - or even ones that aren't on your tradition list. You would have to learn those spells before you could prepare or otherwise use them. Though you could attempt to learn the spell from the spellbook.

I suppose you could also hire someone to write a spell into your spellbook that you don't know. Then you could take it on adventures and learn the spell at leisure rather than having to stay in town until you successfully learn the spell. Probably best when combined with something like Magical Shorthand that lets you try more often than normal.


Ed Reppert wrote:
Can a Wizard or Magus write into his spellbook a spell he does not yet know? Maybe he picked up a scroll or something somewhere, he hasn't had time to learn the spell, but he wants to copy it into his spell book planning to learn it later. Or must all the spells in his spellbook be spells he has learned (either through advancing through the levels or by going through the "learn a spell" routine in game)?

You can simply carry the scroll or the other wizard spellbook while you still don't Learn the Spell but you can't use then until you use Lear a Spell activity and "interpret" and "translate" the spell into your own spellbook.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
breithauptclan wrote:
I think you can also find spellbooks that contain spells that you don't know - or even ones that aren't on your tradition list. You would have to learn those spells before you could prepare or otherwise use them

This isn't quite true, actually... CRB page 242 covers trying to prepare spells from someone else's spellbook.

Quote:

Borrow an Arcane Spell

Concentrate Exploration
If you’re an arcane spellcaster who prepares from a spellbook, you can attempt to prepare a spell from someone else’s spellbook. The GM sets the DC for the check based on the spell’s level and rarity; it’s typically a bit easier than Learning the Spell.

Success You prepare the borrowed spell as part of your normal spell preparation.
Failure You fail to prepare the spell, but the spell slot remains available for you to prepare a different spell. You can’t try to prepare this spell until the next time you prepare spells.


Can a prepared spellcaster prepare a spell he hasn't learned (this is a trick question. :-))


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Ed Reppert wrote:
Can a prepared spellcaster prepare a spell he hasn't learned (this is a trick question. :-))

The Arcane ones can try, but not from a scroll. I posted the rule for attempting that already.


There are three prepared spellcaster classes who are not "arcane spellcaster who prepares from a spellbook". What of them?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

They can't. Two of them will only have that issue for Uncommon or Rare spells, though.


So a Cleric or Druid has learned every common spell on their respective spell list?


CRB Errata 3 wrote:
The cleric and druid are slightly more complicated, as there was some confusion as to how clerics and druids learn new spells (they use Learn a Spell). Change cleric to say they prepare their spells "from the common spells on the divine spell list (page 309) or from other divine spells to which you gain access and learn via Learn a Spell." and druid to follow suit. This will cause clerics and druids to have an ever-expanding list of options, so if this becomes unmanageable compared to other prepared spellcasters, consider either restricting to a smaller and more manageable subset of spells like the other prepared spellcasters or implementing strategies like having a few default lists prepared in advance.

CRB Errata 3


Still not entirely clear how that works. RAW it looks like they have by default when they become a cleric or druid access to the common spells on the divine or primal list in the CRB and would have to Learn any other spells they want to have available to prepare daily. That would include uncommon or rare spells from any source, and common spells from a source other than the CRB. Which is fine with me, unless my interpretation is wrong.

It does bring up another question though. When the rules speak of a character's spell list, do they mean the list of all spells of his tradition, or just the ones he knows and can cast (spontaneous casters) or prepare?


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No, that errata gets rid of the CRB wording and opens them to all Common spells on their respective spell lists.

What it used to say:

Old wrote:
At 1st level, you can prepare two 1st-level spells and five cantrips each morning from the common spells on the divine spell list in this book (page 309) or from other divine spells to which you gain access.

What the errata makes it:

New wrote:
At 1st level, you can prepare two 1st-level spells and five cantrips each morning from the common spells on the divine spell list or from other divine spells to which you gain access.

So Clerics and Druids get access to everything that's Common. Anything that's not Common they need to find and use the Learn a Spell activity. As soon as they do that, it's now permanently an option for them to pick when preparing spells.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

No, that is our of date. Originally they were written to know all Common CRB spells without learning anything, so that their spell lists didn't expand wildly (leading to a lot of analysis paralysis for new players). The CRB was errataed. The setup is now that they know all Common spells before they start learning things.

As for what a spell list means, all of the things I their tradition, plus anything they specially add (for example, for a cleric that is all divine spells, plus the handful of spells their deity adds for them).


"they know all common spells before they start learning things".

How do they know them?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Automatically.

When you apply the errata to their spellcasting class features, there is no need for them to Learn common spells. "Common divine spells from this book" has been replaced with just "common spells on the divine list"

the errata wrote:

Pages 118, 130, 204: In the wizard, change the spells you can select at 1st level to "You choose these from the common spells on the arcane spell list (page 307) or from other arcane spells you gain access to. " to match the witch.

The cleric and druid are slightly more complicated, as there was some confusion as to how clerics and druids learn new spells (they use Learn a Spell). Change cleric to say they prepare their spells "from the common spells on the divine spell list (page 309) or from other divine spells to which you gain access and learn via Learn a Spell." and druid to follow suit. This will cause clerics and druids to have an ever-expanding list of options, so if this becomes unmanageable compared to other prepared spellcasters, consider either restricting to a smaller and more manageable subset of spells like the other prepared spellcasters or implementing strategies like having a few default lists prepared in advance.


Ed Reppert wrote:

"they know all common spells before they start learning things".

How do they know them?

Divine/nature intervention.


Guntermench wrote:
Ed Reppert wrote:

"they know all common spells before they start learning things".

How do they know them?

Divine/nature intervention.

I like this answer better than Hammerjack’s. :-)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Were you looking for a narrative explanation instead of the rules answer on that one?


Not really. Since the rules aren’t explicit about how this works, though, I prefer an answer that fits better with the game milieu.


That's flavor stuff though.

The answer that fits with the "game" is the one provided by Hammerjack.


Okay. Where does it say "automatically" in the rules?


Where it doesn't say you need to learn them all.

Divine Spellcasting wrote:

At 1st level, you can prepare two 1st-level spells and five cantrips each morning from the common spells on the divine spell list or from other divine spells to which you gain access. Prepared spells remain available to you until you cast them or until you prepare your spells again. The number of spells you can prepare is called your spell slots.

As you increase in level as a cleric, the number of spells you can prepare each day increases, as does the highest level of spell you can cast, as shown in Table 3–9: Cleric Spells per Day on page 120.

It just says you pick from common level 1 spells, then says you can prepare higher level spells as you level.


Yeah, I mean, seems like making things more complicated than they actually are for no reason.


<sigh> I guess I have to read the designer's mind. Or accept that you've done that for me. Never mind. I'll just go beat my head against this wall here.


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Flavor-wise: divine casters (which includes Druids - "nature" is their divine source) are god-botherers; they do not "learn" spells, they pray for intervention.

Clerical magic does not stem from personal power, mental agility, or direct control of mysterious forces. They are simply channels for divine power. They don't study magic, carry spell books, or learn spells because they do not need to...although they are presumed to study theology to strengthen their faith / better serve as a conduit.

Pity the poor Arcane and Occult casters though! Sadly unsupported by universal good (or evil) powers, they make their way with raw intellect, shrewd deduction, and eidetic memory (with a side of "bothering things best left alone" for Occult casters). Constantly scouring dim libraries, and ancient ruins for arcane/occult knowledge, mysterious tomes, grimoires of good/ill repute, and the like, they slowly cobble together enough knowledge to pass their Wizardly exams... (Arcane-Levels, Sorcerous Arcana Tests, Arcana Competence Tribunals, etc).

Terrible oversight that the CRB makes only passing reference to the difficulties of the hard-working magic-users among us.


BloodandDust wrote:
Terrible oversight that the CRB makes only passing reference to the difficulties of the hard-working magic-users among us.

What, do you think it's easy to keep a *god* happy, with everyone else clamoring for their attention? What have *you* done for them lately? And those poor durids (sic). You've heard the phrase, "changeable as the seasons," right? Nature is the OG fickle lover. Must be nice to get all that power for the low cost of holding a tune or reading a book :3

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