Shadows and shadow trait


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


Is there a reason that shadows/greater shadows (or any creature with the shadow adjustment from Book of the Dead) don't have the shadow trait, or is it just something that got overlooked and isn't important enough to correct?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There is no shadow trait for monsters, only for planes.

That being said, the planar shadow trait does have verbiage indicating monsters can have it too, and that such mention means they are native to that plane.

So I'm guessing the developers either forgot, or the monster's in question are not from the shadow plane.


Ravingdork wrote:
There is no shadow trait for monsters, only for planes.

Umm...

So yeah, I would think it was just forgotten.


Ravingdork wrote:

There is no shadow trait for monsters, only for planes.

That being said, the planar shadow trait does have verbiage indicating monsters can have it too, and that such mention means they are native to that plane.

So I'm guessing the developers either forgot, or the monster's in question are not from the shadow plane.

Yeah, as breithauptclan said, there's a bunch of monsters with the shadow trait.

The only reason I question that it might not be a mistake is only one description of the shadow plane has ever actually included shadows as notable inhabitants, and even then only in passing. Which is weird to me, and makes me think there must be something I'm missing.


The Shadow?


It is also possible that it was overlooked. There are some funky little errors in the first bestiary, probably because it was converted over from the playtest. Other creatures are missing some traits too; graveknights are meant to have a bespoke trait according to their template build rules, but it's absent from all the printed graveknights so far, for example. That, or they aren't meant to have a trait and that language got left in for some reason.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
breithauptclan wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
There is no shadow trait for monsters, only for planes.

Umm...

So yeah, I would think it was just forgotten.

Why would you omit critical context from someone's post like that?

I clearly indicated monsters can have the shadow trait in the very next paragraph. Thing is, it's only applicable to shadow plane natives.

A shadow created on the material plane wouldn't possess the trait.

It's possible the trait was omitted accidentally. It's also possible that it was deliberately left off because the monsters in question aren't assumed to be natives of the shadow plane.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The Shadow Trait is applied to those creatures who are themselves native to the Plane itself.

Shadows don't originate from the Shadow Plane, they are simply shadow-like Undead creatures. They can exist within then Plane, thanks to their Undead nature and the Planes proxim to the Nagative Energy Plane; which can result in Greater Shadows.


Ravingdork wrote:

Why would you omit critical context from someone's post like that?

I clearly indicated monsters can have the shadow trait in the very next paragraph. Thing is, it's only applicable to shadow plane natives.

Not sure if this is worth responding to or not. But I guess I will find out.

-----

Here is how I am interpreting your three paragraphs:

Quote:
There is no shadow trait for monsters, only for planes.

'There are currently no monsters with the Shadow trait.'

Quote:
That being said, the planar shadow trait does have verbiage indicating monsters can have it too, and that such mention means they are native to that plane.

'It is possible that the trait could be applied to monsters.'

Quote:
So I'm guessing the developers either forgot, or the monster's in question are not from the shadow plane.

'So it is uncertain if omitting the trait was intentional or not.'

-----

There is only one statement of those three that I disagree with, so that is all that I responded to.


Ly'ualdre wrote:

The Shadow Trait is applied to those creatures who are themselves native to the Plane itself.

Shadows don't originate from the Shadow Plane, they are simply shadow-like Undead creatures. They can exist within then Plane, thanks to their Undead nature and the Planes proxim to the Nagative Energy Plane; which can result in Greater Shadows.

At least three of the creatures with the shadow trait are non-natives of the plane (the ones I’ve noted are Alapolos, Betobeto-sans, and Skull fairies).


Like the Fiend trait is not exclusive to creatures from the lower planes, but rather indicates creatures with 'essence' of those planes infusing their being, it stands to reason that non-Shadow natives might still be infused in some way with the essence of Shadow.

On the other hand, why an undead monster literally called a 'shadow' is not considered to be a Shadow-infused being is left as an exercise for the reader. Perhaps despite their obvious thematic similarities, shadows are not considered to be directly related to the Shadow Plane....


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Betobeto-san are created when travelers pass through the Shadow and Material Plane, thereby being created of the same metaphysical material the Shadow Plane is made from.

Skull Fairies arise as a result of those who die from expose to the energies of the Shadow Plane. This suggests that, most of the time, their inception is likely going to be on the Plane itself. But, for those that maybe die elsewhere, possibly near a Planar Rift, the energies of the Shadow Plane still factor into their creation.

Alapolo's are admittedly the odd one out here, since nothing expressly states that orongate or are tied to the Shadow Plane. They are, however, described as "Fey creatures with a supernatural tie to shadows", which is still a lot more than what Shadows themselves have. But given the fact they have the Shadow Trait, it can be infered they somehow have ties to the Plane.

The other two make reference to the Shadow Plane in their sidebars.

EDIT: Shadows are named for the fact that they look and act like an actual Shadow. According to Undead Revisited, stating "Shadows are incorporeal undead, distorted like their namesakes". Says to me they were named for their similarities, not because they are actual shadows.


Ly'ualdre wrote:

Betobeto-san are created when travelers pass through the Shadow and Material Plane, thereby being created of the same metaphysical material the Shadow Plane is made from.

Skull Fairies arise as a result of those who die from expose to the energies of the Shadow Plane. This suggests that, most of the time, their inception is likely going to be on the Plane itself. But, for those that maybe die elsewhere, possibly near a Planar Rift, the energies of the Shadow Plane still factor into their creation.

Alapolo's are admittedly the odd one out here, since nothing expressly states that orongate or are tied to the Shadow Plane. They are, however, described as "Fey creatures with a supernatural tie to shadows", which is still a lot more than what Shadows themselves have. But given the fact they have the Shadow Trait, it can be infered they somehow have ties to the Plane.

The other two make reference to the Shadow Plane in their sidebars.

EDIT: Shadows are named for the fact that they look and act like an actual Shadow. According to Undead Revisited, stating "Shadows are incorporeal undead, distorted like their namesakes". Says to me they were named for their similarities, not because they are actual shadows.

All that is true, but is still deeply unsatisfying to me. However, your mention of Undead Revisited triggered a memory, and upon checking it turns out there are variant shadows that are specifically from or connected to the shadow plane, so that assuages me somewhat.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Indeed. Luckily, most Traits have little mechanical impact on creatures. I think it would be fair and safe to throw Shadow on just about anything and simply say that particular creature hails from the Shadow Plane.

If Betobeto-san effectively means Mr.StickySticky; would a Shadow native to the Shadow Plane be called Kagekage-san?
As a note, this is a joke.

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