Extract Element not as good as you think

[tytalan]

A lot of people have been justifying the lack of legendary DC proficiency by pointing out that extract element gives a penalty to saves and ac. But extract element only works on creatures that have the element tag or have a elemental nature. This means there are many creatures that not only are resistant or immune to a element but also do not have a elemental nature.
Here’s some examples
Imp
Lantern archon
Golem’s
Multadi
That a very quick 10 sec list

[EberronHoward]

For D&Dish classes that focus in 1 energy type, there's always the problem of running into a monster that is immune to your energy. Extract Element isn't the perfect solution to this problem, but it is a very flavourful and satisfying one.

[Martialmasters]

tytalan wrote:

A lot of people have been justifying the lack of legendary DC proficiency by pointing out that extract element gives a penalty to saves and ac. But extract element only works on creatures that have the element tag or have a elemental nature. This means there are many creatures that not only are resistant or immune to a element but also do not have a elemental nature.

Here’s some examples
Imp
Lantern archon
Golem’s
Multadi
That a very quick 10 sec list

People have been using that?

My justification was that nobody else has legendary class DC. If they would have wanted it to be a thing they would have done it by now.

But it's whatever. I'm gonna put up a post on suggestions to the class with no consideration to balance budget in a bit.

[PossibleCabbage]

Legendary class DC is suggested to be a thing that is possible because all proficiency uses the same five tiers, but the fact that no one ever gets it is puzzling.

I'm not saying that the Kineticist needs to get it, but that we've seen legendary weapon proficiency, legendary defensive proficiency, legendary spellcasting, legendary perception, and every kind of legendary save or legendary skill but never legendary class DC makes me wonder what it would take.

[Kyrone]

If it would have to happen it would already with the alchemist though, that have expert attacks.

[Pronate11]

Kyrone wrote:

If it would have to happen it would already with the alchemist though, that have expert attacks.

except that alchemists didn't actually use their class DC that much until an errata gave them powerful alchemy for free. It wouldn't have made sense to give it to them

[Dubious Scholar]

Doesn't extract also wear off if you lose your gathered element? So you know, on using most damaging impulses.

[Martialmasters]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Doesn't extract also wear off if you lose your gathered element? So you know, on using most damaging impulses.

Not blast's, Wich cost only 1 action so in terms of damage efficiency they are better than overflow attacks if your not concerned with aoe at the time.

[Xenocrat]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Doesn't extract also wear off if you lose your gathered element? So you know, on using most damaging impulses.

You just extract again. It’s literally gather but with bonus effects against an elemental type and wasted in a crit success save.

[Puna'chong]

But I didn't think extract element was good...

[Xenocrat]

Wearing a life vest, not the fun you expected!

[Errenor]

tytalan wrote:

But extract element only works on creatures that have the element tag or have a elemental nature. This means there are many creatures that not only are resistant or immune to a element but also do not have a elemental nature.

Here’s some examples
Imp

You missed the main offender: all devils and fire :)

[Tweezer]

This list sort of ignores the Elemental Nature on page 8 of the playtest doc.

Ie. A stone Golem is made primarily of an earthen material, and can be affected ny blasts from extracted material even though it doesn't have yhe earth/atone trait. And depending on the GM the same argument could be made for things like an imp.

There's another issue soecifically golems, though. And that is the fact that extract element had the Primal trait. This makes extract element subject to golem antimagic, meaning you cannot extract from the golem in the first place.

[Errenor]

Tweezer wrote:

And depending on the GM the same argument could be made for things like an imp.

I doubt many GMs would agree. Imp is a devil. Devils could be many things (but mostly just evil and chaotically evilly lawful) but not elemental or specifically fire in nature.

[Guntermench]

Tweezer wrote:

This list sort of ignores the Elemental Nature on page 8 of the playtest doc.

Ie. A stone Golem is made primarily of an earthen material, and can be affected ny blasts from extracted material even though it doesn't have yhe earth/atone trait. And depending on the GM the same argument could be made for things like an imp.

There's another issue soecifically golems, though. And that is the fact that extract element had the Primal trait. This makes extract element subject to golem antimagic, meaning you cannot extract from the golem in the first place.

Golems can't be affected because of Golem Antimagic.

[Xenocrat]

Errenor wrote:

tytalan wrote:

But extract element only works on creatures that have the element tag or have a elemental nature. This means there are many creatures that not only are resistant or immune to a element but also do not have a elemental nature.

Here’s some examples
Imp

You missed the main offender: all devils and fire :)

At least the dual fire/air guy can switch to d4 air blasts against resistance/silver.