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Yes, no.
Revive Thread.
Just want to double check this before I start playing a Thaumaturge after Christmas.
What about the MARTIAL ARCHETYPE or the BARD ARCHETYPE?
What about any spells that give you an aura?
Just checking because my whole build is around giving benefits by being in 2 places at once.
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It's not clear, but how I would do it:
You count as being in both places until you move, go unconscious, or at the start of your turn. However, effects like Auras and emanations you create would only emanate from one space (not that 15ft matters in a 60ft emanation), so Bless/Bane would only emanate from one of you. If the one with the emanation is determined to be the "fake" you, it would start emanating from the real you. You wouldn't lose an aura just because it was emanating from a different version of you that happened to be fake. Enemies also wouldn't be able to determine the "real" you based on an aura since they're both real.
Well, there is an argument that Bless is a fixed position emanation rather than an Aura effect, so it wouldn't move from the location that it was cast from.
But that aside, unless it becomes a noticeable problem, I would probably let Aura effects be duplicated at both locations.
Yes, for small Aura effects like the Marshal aura or unimproved Bless that would be a decent improvement - of something that is rather difficult to capitalize on generally. So it makes a good synergy, but it doesn't seem to me to be any better than other things that are already available.
On another note, I realize using the mirror can be used a small teleportation inside or outside combat.
DM: Okay everyone you need to cross the 15 foot bridge or get to the other side one way or the other. Below the bridge is rapid running water. Or a 50 foot cliff. You bypass the checks needed to make it.
Thaumaturge: I use my mirror implement as an action. I create a mirror image of myself. You get to chose which version of you is the real you. Okay, Pick the me that is on the other side. The Mirror is in a sense endless teleportation spells. Of course the distance is very little compared to a arcane casters teleportation spells, but they can only do that a limited number of times equal to how many spells they have. A Thaumaturge can teleport an unlimited number of times.
Hmmm... so it doesn't seem like there's complete consensus, but it's definitely not as simple as "yes you can use it this way".
Here's a scenario that will likely come up in my game:
My Thaumaturge with a Mirror Implement is using the Free Archetype rules and is going to invest pretty heavily into the MARTIAL ARCHETYPE. The Martial archetype gives you a passive 10 foot aura that gives allies a +1 to saves vs fear, and allows you to confer some other benefits to allies within the aura .
The scenario I'm thinking of is if I want to use the SNAP OUT OF IT feat. This feat allows me to pick an ally who is within my aura and spend 1 of my actions to allow them to reroll a save. Would I have to choose in advance which copy is the "real" me in order to know which allies can benefit from Snap Out Of It ? Or could I potentially use this on 2 separate allies, one from within the aura of each copy?
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(Marshal, as in somebody who leads or directs troops, rather than martial, as in related to war. English is a mess.)
- Mirror implement says "any effects you generate come from only one of your positions; you decide which each time you act"
- Is the aura an effect you generate? Yes.
- Therefore, it only comes from one of you, picked when you act. You don't have to act to generate the aura... okay, yeah, now I see why this is so confusing and ambiguous.
- Well, it says when you act. So my best guess is when you use Snap Out Of It, you can pick which one of you has the aura?
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He does have to act to generate the aura, when he enters the stance that generates it. THAT is when he chooses which one of him has the aura, not when he uses Snap Out of It
The stance upgrades to the aura take an action to activate. The basic aura is permanent. And the stance upgrades are stances - they last for the duration of the battle.
So yes, if you use the mirror first and then later in that round you trigger your stance upgrade to the Marshal aura, you would need to choose which copy it emanates from.
In all other cases, the mirror copies are created after the action to create the aura was. So which copy does the aura emanate from?
And in most cases the effects of the Marshal auras of various types are triggered by an ally's action. So does the first ally who could possibly benefit from the aura get to choose which copy the emanation is coming from?
Hmmm ... the more we discuss this the more I think they didn't consider passive auras when writing this.
You reflect an illusory image of yourself into another unoccupied space within 15 feet that you can see. You are treated as being in both spaces until the start of your next turn. For example, you can attack, Seek, and provide flanking—even with yourself. You occupy both spaces.
Your mirror self mimics your actions exactly, but any effects you generate come from only one of your positions; you decide which each time you act. For example, if you made a melee Strike against a creature within reach of the reflection, you'd mime the actions of the Strike, but only the reflection would actually make the Strike. Anything that targets or would affect your reflection affects you and uses your statistics. Something that would target or affect both of you affects you only once. For example, a fireball that included both of you in its area would require only one save from you and damage you no more than once. When you move, you choose which square to move from, but the mirror effect ends (see below).
Some events force you to determine which image is the real you, and then end the effect and cause your mirror self to disappear; this happens automatically at the start of your next turn. It also happens if you choose to move out of your space. Other benefits of this implement add more events that can end the reflection. The effect also ends when you fall unconscious, at which point you decide which version is truly you.
The parts in bold are the relevant text . The first 3 sentences of the bolded section certainly seem to imply that everything you are is a part of your reflection and occupies both spaces. Then the next part about "Effects you generate" states that they only come from 1 source. It's certainly understandable that you can't have both reflections attack with 1 action, but a passive aura isn't using your actions. In fact here is the definition of an Aura:
An aura is an emanation that continually ebbs out from you, affecting creatures within a certain radius. Aura can also refer to the magical signature of an item or a creature with a strong alignment.
It's also worth noting that you can flank with multiple people at once, including yourself. Is flanking an effect you generate? If so is that an exception to the rule or is it helping to define what an "Effect you generate" actually is?
So going back to our example before: Let's say I have 2 copies of myself on the field: Mirror-A and Mirror-B. I use my final action on my turn to use Snap Out Of It on an ally from Mirror-A, thus using an action to decide which version is generating the effect. Then on the enemy's turn they use a fear effect on my ally who's standing next to Mirror-B. Would they get the +1 to saves vs fear or has the whole aura moved?
Now what if - just before the enemy used their fear effect - I used my AMULET'S ABEYANCE reaction from Mirror B? Would that make my aura move to Mirror-B since it's the last image used, or does the aura stay with Mirror-A since that was the last image that used an aura-specific ability?
Now obviously I'm a bit biased in this - I'm looking to make a specific character and it only works with a certain reading of the rules, but it does also make me wonder what the benefit of the Mirror is if this doesn't work. I like the Mirror, I think it's super cool and thematic, but if the main benefit is to provide extra flanking buddies that's pretty weak, especially considering the Adept benefit lets enemies decide which is the "real" version by destroying one of them .
I mention my bias because my reading of this is that passive abilities would affect both images. The text about only generating effects from 1 image talks about choosing when you ACT. If you don't act then do you not get to choose, or do you not have to choose? I realise I'm stepping outside the bounds of Rules As Written and into Rules As Intended, but as stated above I don't think RAW considered all the options, so we look to RAI.
I think I've rambled enough for now, what do you all think?
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(Sorry, this is really long-winded. Was thinking over it a bit, so I just went ahead and rambled.)
TL;DR, I think that RAI is "you shouldn't be able to duplicate effects, because that would result in broken things and the rules can't make special exceptions for cases where it'd be reasonable". You're focusing on the "how do you choose which one?" part, but that's just how to handle that restriction.
Some appreciable benefits the mirror provides:
- Flanking, the most obvious.
- Short, at-will teleport.
- Low-risk exploration. Ice seems thin? Put your double ahead while you keep a copy back. Peek around a corner while leaving a copy behind.
- Duplication of non-effect stuff. You still threaten a weapon reaction with both, and anything that isn't an aura/emanation but instead just cares about how close creatures are to you (there are "allies within 60 feet of you" type abilities that aren't auras or emanations).
- Just a really weird fun thing. Pretend a doppelganger has infiltrated camp, put on a two-person play using masks with a different face on each side, or actually use it as a 3-D mirror.
(And yes, I'd love for the adept benefit to be errata'd as an optional effect.)
I'd be a little more inclined to believe that it's entirely unintended and a one-off weird interaction with Marshal if it weren't for the fact that the other big example and the one starting the thread is another implement. I definitely agree it's a bit weird.
My thought process is as follows, though:
- First off, we've got the big obvious question answered clearly: if I make an attack, is it real? The answer is straightforward: every time you attack, you pick which one actually hits, while the other mirrors the movements.
- Next thought is spells. Fireball comes to mind first, and it's pretty clear. You cast the spell, both of them go through the motions (maybe reading off a scroll, maybe multiclass casting), but a fireball only comes out of one of them. Still clear.
- Next, casting an aura. That's pretty clear- you're clearly generating an effect, and you pick which copy it comes from.
- What if I cast the aura first, then split myself? Well, it's still pretty clear that "any effects you generate come from only one of your positions". Regardless of how we handle the "choosing when you act" part, I'd take this as intending that we can't duplicate our aura spell with this.
- At that point, why is a permanent passive aura special?
I think there's plenty of room for handling how you can handle which one is generating the effect. But, a few thoughts.
- It's not picking which one of you is real- in the ability's example, the reflection is actually the one making the strike. So I don't think an aura necessarily has to tag along when you pick the other image for amulet's abeyance.
- The rules do say "you decide which each time you act". You could choose to read that to let you move the aura with any action, with any related action, or most restrictively, just treat the mirror implement's activation as the action of decision for any effects that already exist.
THAT SAID. Obviously this is a "check with your GM" situation. I think it's especially reasonable to look at certain auras and think, "This should really just be a generic 'allies within X feet of you' deal but auras probably provided such convenient templating. Is my image that much less inspiring than me, or vice versa?" There's a big difference between my "what's the intention?" and "what's reasonable to do in a game?" The intention is probably "stop weird free duplication of effects that would eventually result in something obnoxiously broken", whereas "what's reasonable in a game?" can make the judgement that Marshal probably isn't that broken combination and ignoring the restriction to allow a fun build would be reasonable.
Side note especially if somebody from Paizo wanders in:
Agree with pretty much everything QuidEst said. Especially the last part (tbh if I had one complaint it's that the mirror makes me wish things like the wand and chalice and regalia were weirder too).
just treat the mirror implement's activation as the action of decision for any effects that already exist.
That is probably the most game-balanced ruling on this that I have heard so far.
Though I also agree that it does feel a bit restrictive.
just treat the mirror implement's activation as the action of decision for any effects that already exist.That is probably the most game-balanced ruling on this that I have heard so far.
Though I also agree that it does feel a bit restrictive.
If I were Paizo, I'd definitely pick that. It solves pretty much all the questions, it's easy to run, it fits the existing wording just fine, and it's not going to suddenly break things when Kineticist comes out with all its damaging auras and access to the mirror implement via archetype.
Take a hypothetical "you can move the aura on any action" ruling and an aura that does one damage when an enemy enters it. You could free action repeatedly to flicker the aura between two locations, and now you have five threads asking if the enemy is "entering" the aura. If you generously put it on both copies, does the overlapping area deal double damage? And if you say "you can move it on related actions", that is difficult to run because what exactly is a related action?
I would certainly try to give a player something more interesting if they were going with a particular pairing, like Marshal. But that's the benefit of a home game- you can do something that doesn't need to be balanced for all possible combinations or situations. It's easy to answer "what exactly is a related action" for a single archetype, or to say that doubling Marshal's aura isn't going to be a problem in the game.
- Just a really weird fun thing. Pretend a doppelganger has infiltrated camp, put on a two-person play using masks with a different face on each side, or actually use it as a 3-D mirror.
Just to be clear, I'm 100% onboard with this. The Mirror was my favourite option as soon as I saw the Thaumaturge , and while reading up on it I found the REFLECTION ANCESTRY and that was instantly integrated into my character conecept. I'm definitely going with this idea no matter the outcome of this thread . I'm just hijacking this thread to voice my opinion and bounce ideas off people to see what lands since some of this is a bit unclear.
I think the Mirror's Reflection action being the moment when you decide the aura does make the most sense as a general rule, though as you say there's some wiggle-room in a home-game . The main thing is having a clear understanding before the weird interactions come up and cause tension in the game.
Thanks guys I've really appreciated the input in this thread. Lots of good ideas, it's great to have a creative brains-trust to bounce off.
Also do you all think this is worth an FAQ?
Not only are there a decent number of multiclass options for auras, but the Regalia and Mirror interaction is something that will come up often enough to be worth having an official stance.
I'll hit the FAQ button on the top of this thread and see what comes of it ...
EDIT: Or apparently I won't ... there's no FAQ button in the PF2 forums?
- Just a really weird fun thing. Pretend a doppelganger has infiltrated camp, put on a two-person play using masks with a different face on each side, or actually use it as a 3-D mirror.Just to be clear, I'm 100% onboard with this. The Mirror was my favourite option as soon as I saw the Thaumaturge , and while reading up on it I found the REFLECTION ANCESTRY and that was instantly integrated into my character conecept. I'm definitely going with this idea no matter the outcome of this thread . I'm just hijacking this thread to voice my opinion and bounce ideas off people to see what lands since some of this is a bit unclear.
I think the Mirror's Reflection action being the moment when you decide the aura does make the most sense as a general rule, though as you say there's some wiggle-room in a home-game . The main thing is having a clear understanding before the weird interactions come up and cause tension in the game.
Thanks guys I've really appreciated the input in this thread. Lots of good ideas, it's great to have a creative brains-trust to bounce off.
It was pretty fun to consider and discuss, so thank you! Hope you have fun with your character in the game. X)