A long ago I saw some Mark's posts saying that PF don't have damage without type and even additional damage have same damage type from main damage or have a specific damage type. But recently I noticed that are at last 3 (Disintegrate, Implosion and Power Word Kill) spells that don't have any information of what damage type they are.
So what's the damage type of theses spells? Are they really damage without type?
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Disintegrate's always (or so it seems) been its own thing, so yeah, not another damage type, but it does often get noted as having special effects when interacting with other abilities. "Disintegration Damage"??
Implosion does seem to lack a damage type too.
Power Word, Kill does mental damage, as seen by its traits.
With those first two, I'm not sure Mark's post is valid, nor would it give us which actual damage type to use so it can't overwrite the given rules.
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While it is a Mental effect, it doesn't do Mental damage. I would say it's indeed un-typed. Nothing in the written rules say damage needs a type, that was just a designer clarifying that any extra damage on strikes was the same type as the base strike's damage. These aren't providing extra damage, they're just un-typed damage.
I was going to look up damage rules but AoN is dead right now, so I'll have to do it later.
I was going to look up damage rules but AoN is dead right now, so I'll have to do it later.
Ah, so it wasn't just me. Good to know.
While it is a Mental effect, it doesn't do Mental damage. I would say it's indeed un-typed. Nothing in the written rules say damage needs a type, that was just a designer clarifying that any extra damage on strikes was the same type as the base strike's damage. These aren't providing extra damage, they're just un-typed damage.
I was going to look up damage rules but AoN is dead right now, so I'll have to do it later.
So is this makes these spells (with notable exception of Power Word due it's mental trait) the most agnostic damage in the game? No resistances, no weakness? Except against all damage of course.
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A long ago I saw some Mark's posts saying that PF don't have damage without type and even additional damage have same damage type from main damage or have a specific damage type. But recently I noticed that are at last 3 (Disintegrate, Implosion and Power Word Kill) spells that don't have any information of what damage type they are.
So what's the damage type of theses spells? Are they really damage without type?
Probably an oversight. I think they should have a damage type.
If I had to guess based on the secondary traits and wording of the powers I'd say:Disintegrate would do magical energy force damage,
Implosion magical physical bludgeoning damage,
Power Word Kill magical mental damage.
The rules CRB p452 define damage type by example only and don't give a definition of what damage type is. There are Physical, Energy, Poison, Mental damage types. All these have specific sub types which are also damage types. Then there are these extra categories which are different: Bleed - a different kind of damage, Precision - a damage type but often tacks onto other damage types instead of being a separate damage type, and Precious Materials which is another property of damage that can apply as well as a damage type. Then there is Magical which is another property of damage but not actually a damage type.
If you want a tightly defined rules set, then this section of the rules is a nightmare. Dare I say that additional damage or extra damage don't even get a mention.
So is this makes these spells (with notable exception of Power Word due it's mental trait) the most agnostic damage in the game? No resistances, no weakness? Except against all damage of course.While it is a Mental effect, it doesn't do Mental damage. I would say it's indeed un-typed. Nothing in the written rules say damage needs a type, that was just a designer clarifying that any extra damage on strikes was the same type as the base strike's damage. These aren't providing extra damage, they're just un-typed damage.
I was going to look up damage rules but AoN is dead right now, so I'll have to do it later.
They still have their traits. But yes that would be an advantage and also a minor disadvantage. If you went with that.
Power Word Kill doesn't have a damage roll. So that gives it some odd features as well. Like does even Dangerous Sorcery affect it?
There's Divine Decree, too.
Power Word Kill doesn't have a damage roll. So that gives it some odd features as well. Like does even Dangerous Sorcery affect it?
Even if it's not clear at all by the rules, fixed damage abilities should have bonuses to damage otherwise you generate some very weird rules implication. For example: Blowguns getting no bonus to damage at all, Daze suddenly benefiting from bonuses to damage at level 5, Finger of Death asking for a basic save while basic saves are handled during the first phase of the damage sequence, etc...
There's Divine Decree, too.
Ah yes I forget to mention alignment damage. Which is what this one likely should be. Of course its got custom rules for how the damage applies in the spell. Different to normal alignment damage.
Power Word Kill doesn't have a damage roll. So that gives it some odd features as well. Like does even Dangerous Sorcery affect it?Even if it's not clear at all by the rules, fixed damage abilities should have bonuses to damage otherwise you generate some very weird rules implication. For example: Blowguns getting no bonus to damage at all, Daze suddenly benefiting from bonuses to damage at level 5, Finger of Death asking for a basic save while basic saves are handled during the first phase of the damage sequence, etc...
Probably right. I have this urge to rewrite the damage rules for PF2 so they are complete and coherent.
What the rules actually say is:Damage is sometimes given as a fixed amount, but more often than not you’ll make a damage roll to determine how much damage you deal. A damage roll typically uses a number and type of dice determined by the weapon or unarmed attack used or the spell cast, and it is often enhanced by various modifiers, bonuses, and penalties. Like checks, a damage roll—especially a melee weapon damage roll—is often modified by a number of modifiers, penalties, and bonuses. When making a damage roll, you take the following steps, explained in detail below.
1.Roll the dice indicated by the weapon, unarmed attack, or spell, and apply the modifiers, bonuses, and penalties that apply to the result of the roll.
2.Determine the damage type.
3.Apply the target’s immunities, weaknesses, and resistances to the damage.
4.If any damage remains, reduce the target’s Hit Points by that amount.
So there is a solid argment to be made that if you take a fixed amount of damage you don't even go through this procedure. However there is no other procedure so you are stuck with this as your only option. So you plug the fixed amount in instead of the die roll and go for it. The modifiers to the roll apply probably?!?
It hurts to think about.
So there is a solid argment to be made that if you take a fixed amount of damage you don't even go through this procedure.
That's it. If we were going for strict RAW, static damage... doesn't do anything at all as there's nothing describing how to handle it.
But we know for sure that static damage has a damage type, that it should trigger weaknesses and suffer from resistances and immunities and that it should reduces hps, so it's safe to say that we have to go through the last 3 phases. Because Finger of Death has a basic save we also need to go through the end of phase 1.By using Occam's razor, we can consider that the first sentence of damage rules is the problematic one. First, it says that "Damage is sometimes given as a fixed amount, but more often than not". There's no definition of "fixed amount", and maybe it just refers to some edge cases like damage from the environment and the words "more often than not" actually means "nearly always" (which are nearly synonyms). On top of that, the opposition between fixed damage and rolled damage is only implied and not stated: it's the "but" that creates the opposition but maybe it is limited to this sentence and not to the whole damage rules.
In my opinion, it's just a poorly worded sentence and fixed damage should go through the whole procedure.
Lets fix it up - striking out what should be removed, in bold what I'm saying needs to be added for clarity.
Damage is sometimes given as a fixed amount, but more often than not you’ll make a damage roll to determine how much damage you deal. A damage roll typically uses a number and type of dice determined by the weapon or unarmed attack used or the spell cast., and it The total damage is often enhanced adjusted by various modifiers, bonuses, and penalties. Like checks, a damage roll—especially a melee weapon damage roll—is often modified by a number of modifiers, penalties, and bonuses. When making a damage roll applying damage, you take the following steps, explained in detail below.
1.Roll the dice if any indicated by the weapon, unarmed attack, or spell, add in any base amount and apply the modifiers, bonuses, and penalties that apply to the result of the roll. Add in any extra or additional damage.
2.Determine the damage type. Discard any damage the recipient is immune to. If there is more than one type, total up the amounts for each type of damage and go through the remaining steps separately with each type.
3.Apply the target’s immunities, weaknesses, and resistances to the damage.
4.If any damage remains, reduce the target’s Hit Points by that amount.
I'm not changing anything here except for inserting a place for extra and additional damage. If you don't like that because of it battle form rules implications then instead say: Any extra or additional damage is just another type of bonus damage, add it in as well.
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Holy cow. The damage rules are just fine as is. You're overthinking it
No they are not. Even simple things like Shield Block aren't even managed properly under the current rules, e.g. when to reduce damage and by how much.
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Fine. I'll bite. What doesn't work about Shield Block?
One that comes to mind for me immediately: if a single attack deals multiple types of damage, does the shield block reduce one type or both? If only one, do you get to choose which damage type? If the attack is a weapon with an elemental rune on it, so one type is physical and the other type is energy and the shield block reduces the physical damage to 0, does the energy damage still get applied?
Holy cow. The damage rules are just fine as is. You're overthinking it
No, there are a lot of edge cases that are not addressed. Such as the fixed amount of damage that was mentioned.
How does Stoke the Heart affect Daze? Before spell level 3 and after spell level 3? How about splash damage. Or Blast damage.
Having Stoke the Heart only affect Daze after you reach spell level 3 just seems strange. But having a nearly auto-hit area damage that does between 3 and 7 damage from Stoke the Heart (+2 to +6) on an Alchemist throwing cantrip bombs (1 splash damage) seems almost too good to be true.
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On the topic of resistance: Yes, you can resist un-typed damage, but only if you have Resist All.
Though step two of applying damage is to determine the damage type. That would be impossible in this case, but I think it's intended that these spells have no type associated with them. It's up to the GM to determine which, if any, resistances and weaknesses apply to the spells.
Spells like Divine Decree have a good reason to not have a type, as having aligned damage means N creatures would essentially be immune to it.
Disintegrate is literally magic trying to pull you apart at the atomic level.
Implode is trying to use gravity to crush your body from the inside out.
Power Word Kill is just the strongest magical word in existence, one that can kill just by hearing it, but things like constructs are immune because they don't have minds to process the word you are saying.