If I personally had to speculate about "what's going on with the Starstone" diagetically and give it agency, I would say that fundamentally what it wants is to expire as it was created/endowed out of a tremendous amount of trauma, loss, pain, and sacrifice. It understands there's a finite number of individuals it can grant divine power to, but it's responsible in that it doesn't want to grant this divine power to the unworthy, as it's wise enough to realize that something very bad is eventually going to happen where the worthiness of those who gain apotheosis via the Starstone will make the difference.
If you forced me, I could work in "why Aroden allowed himself to die" to this.
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I must say, looking at the origin and history of the Starstone, it is extremely easy to imagine it being both sapient and malevolent.
That we never had the slightest hint at this possibility in the printed material makes me more worried rather than less.
And I now wonder how many of Aroden's actions, even before he became a god, might have been caused by the influence of the Starstone.
A potentially interesting twist to this... The Starstone might be sapient and benevolent, if not necessarily nice about it. Perhaps due to the noble sacrifices of Acavna and Amaznen, it might be prepared to do anything to protect Golarion, up to and including revoking the deific power of its first beneficiary at a crucial moment.
Maybe Aroden's glorious return and the resultant imperial resurgence would have heralded a far darker age for Golarion than the prophetic interpretations had implied... It certainly wouldn't be out of character for The Last Azlanti to make a grave enough mistake that even a good Starstone would have been willing to risk the odd Eye of Abendego to prevent another. Aroden himself might have decided to arrogantly defy the destiny that had made him what he was, breaking prophecy and forcing the Starstone's hand...
This would also explain why, of the three other Ascended, two are uncomplicatedly heroic. Iomedae was truly a Paladin's Paladin and worked her whole life to embody unrelenting Goodness, while Cayden's heart of true gold would have shone through to the Starstone no matter his circumstances (including intoxicating ones).
As for the invisible elephant in the room... Norgorber is, as always, an enigma. A necessary evil to keep more complex dark forces in check, perhaps? I don't quite buy it... But, then, if he wanted to keep his true purpose a secret, I'm sure we wouldn't believe the truth if we found it.
Note that someone who is willing to hurt innocents for the greater good is not Good at my table. Neutral at best.
Now, both Acavna and Amaznen were not Good, but Neutral. So it might work I guess.
Since Aroden was LN, could the Starstone be CN ? It might make sense in a way.
We might see the Ascended as the children of the Starstone and Aroden.
BTW Norgorber is there just so the possibility of an Evil character (including an Evil PC) ascending exists. It makes more stories possible.
Not quite 'everlasting' as it turned out.Last time we checked, Starstone was still there.
I meant that Aroden's godhood wasn't everlasting. I didn't state that very well.
The "what exactly happened to Aroden" is reportedly the lynchpin of the whole tension of the setting, which is why they will never reveal exactly what happened. But I would not be surprised if it involves the Starstone, Tar-Baphon, and Pharasma.
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The "what exactly happened to Aroden" is reportedly the lynchpin of the whole tension of the setting, which is why they will never reveal exactly what happened. But I would not be surprised if it involves the Starstone, Tar-Baphon, and Pharasma.I'd prefer it if Tar-Baphon had nothing to do with it. The pathetic banality of Tar-Baphon's evil is better if Aroden lived and died without ever sparing the Whispering Tyrant a modicum of thought when contrasted with Tar-Baphon's obsession.
Norborger is also a good suspect, but given Aroden's...history, I suspect he found something more interesting than being a god and went of to be an Isekai protagonist somewhere else.
Aroden has been confirmed dead and judged by Pharasma.
My personal theory is that Pharasma had Aroden killed because he was about to do something really stupid and dangerous to reality itself, and "Prophecy being momentarily off line" is the price Pharasma is paying for that.
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Aroden has been confirmed dead and judged by Pharasma.Unless that's in print, they can always change their mind. And if its been printed, that can also be changed. /shrug. I'm not too hung up on the mystery of Aroden. At my table, I know what's up.
I mean, sure, he's dead. But that's so out of character for Aroden. Abandoning his responsibilities to explore some curiosity? That's the kind of behavior we know and love.
You know Aroden was LN, right ? Abandoning one's responsibilities is the absolute greatest crime there is against the LN mindset.
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The "what exactly happened to Aroden" is reportedly the lynchpin of the whole tension of the setting, which is why they will never reveal exactly what happened. But I would not be surprised if it involves the Starstone, Tar-Baphon, and Pharasma.
My private pet theory is that Erastil realized what the long game of Aroden was and slaughtered him to prevent a climate apocalypse.
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I've always been suspicious that the Starstone has its own nefarious agenda. It wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that it caused the death of Aroden by taking its power back at a crucial moment. Perhaps it needed prophecy to fail in order to break free of its own destiny.How nefarious could it be? 2/3 gods it helped ascend are Good.
do crusades fail? are hangovers still real? are thieves caught?
being a god doesn't mean anything in Golarian. Possibly, the Starstone ascended Norgorber, Caiden, and Iomedae to keep them out of the picture... maybe it does that for all the potentials, luring them to their deaths in order to pull the strings on some aeons long plot... it gives away trinkets of divinity to keep up the ruse...
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It's gone from divine source to power source in Starfinder, but yup; it's still there. It even appears to have weathered the recent Drift Crisis intact.Heck, it might still work as a divine source in Starfinder, there's just the slight problem that all the passcodes necessary to get anywhere near it were lost to the Gap.
That shouldn't be any more difficult for an up-and-coming deity than crossing a massive chasm unaided. Should it?
Not to go too much into Starfinder, but there's one god in Galactic Magic named Isvith theorized to have been raised to deity by the Starstone during the Gap; she's the patron of finding secrets/paths/hidden patterns. Her portfolio certainly seems like a logical set of interests for someone who managed to reach the Starstone after it got lifted into space and got locked behind passwords. Though there doesn't seem to be the same "would-be candidates for godhood" culture in Absalom Station as the Pathfinder city, so that might be an argument it might not raise people to godhood anymore. Personally I like the idea it doesn't weaken or run out of power just because having a Macguffin that tons of people want to steal (and destroy a city/station of innocent people to do it) is a nice plot hook to keep around in both settings.
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Depending on how much stock you put into real-life myths about gods adopted into the Golarion setting, Osiris was murdered by Set and resurrected by Isis to father Horus, then killed again by Set and resurrected again by Isis to rule the Field of Reeds. And gods like Ra, Khepri and Horus undergo a daily/nightly cycle of rebirth and rejuvenation. It doesn't exactly sit easily alongside the Golarion system where gods are separate things with finite lifespans, but that was a decision Paizo made when it brought them in.
Frankly, Isis probably thinks Aroden's loved ones and worshippers just aren't trying hard enough. :P
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That would imply Tar-Baphon has the ability to love something other than power...I just get big 'notice me sempai' vibes off of Tar-Baphon re:Aroden is all.
Oh, absolutely, but I'd argue a strong component of that is Tar-Baphon seeks validation by being the most powerful person around, and since Aroden is seemingly the first mortal to ascend to godhood, Tar-Baphon immediately felt compelled to one-up him. Every time he tries to get Aroden's attention it's not out of respect or admiration, it's because he wants to beat the crap out of Aroden and prove himself superior. It IS very anime, but more in the way Cell was to Goku...
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Oh, absolutely, but I'd argue a strong component of that is Tar-Baphon seeks validation by being the most powerful person around, and since Aroden is seemingly the first mortal to ascend to godhood, Tar-Baphon immediately felt compelled to one-up him. Every time he tries to get Aroden's attention it's not out of respect or admiration, it's because he wants to beat the crap out of Aroden and prove himself superior. It IS very anime, but more in the way Cell was to Goku...That would imply Tar-Baphon has the ability to love something other than power...I just get big 'notice me sempai' vibes off of Tar-Baphon re:Aroden is all.
i'm running Tyrant's Grasp and while I won't talk about it here, let's just say that I've interpreted Tar-Baphon slightly differently.
But yes, the 'i want to be the biggest dog' is clearly one way to look at old Barphy.
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An interesting point about Norgorber, who was the first ascended after Aroden, if I recall, was that Aroden hated Norgorbor for using the Starstone to become a god of murder and lies and his church had a lasting enmity with Norgorbor's.
Norgorber represents the darkest urges of humanity, the murderous, self-destructing impulses that keep the race unable to escape its worst depravities. That the villain managed to coax divinity from the very Starstone that Aroden had raised from the ocean depths made Norgorber—and his debased followers—sworn enemies of Arodenites everywhere.There's a weird optimism to Aroden, I guess. He always thought he was going to make humanity better and that humanity would reciprocate. He survived Earthfall and brought the Everlasting Gobstopper of Divinity to the Surface, built a magnificent city around it and helped remakemost ofa human civilization, and then he's surprised when they disappoint him again and again.
Aroden was just jealous that Norgorber is the true god of humanity.
Aroden was just jealous that Norgorber is the true god of humanity.
I would hope humanity is less than 25% "mass murderers" but I admit to having my doubts here.
Limitations don't really apply to deities in Pathfinder. If a god wanted to bring Aroden back to life, I'm sure they could. Most probably don't want to deal with the consequences.
IIRC, Iomedae and Milani specifically don't know what happened to Adoren, and are pissed at Pharasma about a.) not warning him it was coming because of her control of prophecy, and b.) possibly having a hand in it. And while Iomedae is happy to assume what was left of his church and clergy, I don't really see her letting him stay dead without very important, and very well known, reasons to do so. She's literally the goddess of chivalry, keeping a secret like that would feel...wrong.
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While an author is free to change literally anything they want to, "Pharasma's decision is final, there is no appeal" is a pretty big cornerstone of the setting to upend.
Particularly since the non-diagetic reason for making sure there are no take-backs from the Lady of Graves judgments is that they want to keep players from engineering ways to make their characters super powerful by dying. We had a whole AP about stopping this from happening one time (and the scheme in question would have skipped Pharasma's judgment).
But the real reason I don't think they'll budge on "Aroden's not coming back" is that they've been consistent about how this is one mystery they're not going to resolve on the page, since it's the fundamental lynchpin of the Lost Omens setting. It's just like how they're never going to spell out exactly what caused the Gap in Starfinder. If you brought Aroden back, he could spill the beans which must not be spilled.
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It's obviously not quite the same as bringing a god back to life, but towards the end of PF1's lifespan they even did bring in PC-accessible options to undo Pharasma's judgement - Judgement Undone. Once the person in question is no longer a petitioner, it can no longer work - but there is some precedent for undoing Pharasma's decisions.
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If I look back on all the things that would 'never happen' in fictional settings until the publisher/creator suddenly decided to have it happen, I come to the conclusion that when a company says 'That will never happen' they actually mean 'Its not profitable enough to for it to happen yet.'
I agree: no one should rez Aroden. Its not a good idea. Does all sorts of weird things to the fiction of the setting. Violates all sorts of established precedent. Diegetic and non diegetic reasons abound. But one of those reasons is not a limit on a deity's power--because they do not have written limits on their powers.
Deities in Golarion are neither all-mighty nor all-knowing. So, yes they have limits on their power.
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Deities in Golarion are neither all-mighty nor all-knowing. So, yes they have limits on their power.If I look back on all the things that would 'never happen' in fictional settings until the publisher/creator suddenly decided to have it happen, I come to the conclusion that when a company says 'That will never happen' they actually mean 'Its not profitable enough to for it to happen yet.'
I agree: no one should rez Aroden. Its not a good idea. Does all sorts of weird things to the fiction of the setting. Violates all sorts of established precedent. Diegetic and non diegetic reasons abound. But one of those reasons is not a limit on a deity's power--because they do not have written limits on their powers.
Granted, exactly what those limits are are not well defined. That they exist is stated: the various deities can hide things from each other, make mistakes, or even be surprised by mortals (sometimes).
From the various mythologies released by Paizo, the closest to an "all-mighty/all-knowing" deity would be Pharasma. However, even Pharasma can be thwarted (Uragotha, the sahkils, etc.).
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Hero god means Mythic character IIRC.Good to know.
To the average member of Golarian society, I imagine most of the distinctions between deity, demigod, and quasi deity are immaterial, but when it comes to killing god like beings, if we don't exclude the creatures that would have had stat blocks, Noticula would be contender for 'most powerful assassin in the universe'. No other creature comes close to her 40+ confirmed kills.
Rovagug.
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Where is it confirmed that Pherasma judged Aroden's soul? I know she has a herald who looks a lot like him, and it's suggested that herald could be Aroden, but I'd never heard of him being officially judged.
You can check the post history of James Jacobs and search for "Aroden Pharasma". It brings a lot of interesting results BTW.
A post from 2012 : "When a deity dies, they go to the boneyard to get judged by Pharasma.
That means Pharasma judged Aroden, for example, and that she has a pretty good idea (or knows outright) how he died.
It also means that the last thing Pharasma will judge before existance winds down into nothing is herself."
Resurrection always has the built in "the GM (as Pharasma) can say no" clause. If in your game you want to have Aroden come back and tell the embarrassing story how he slipped on a banana peel and died, go for it. But they're certainly not going to do anything like that in official material.