To my understanding, when a creature appears that I want to make a Recall Knowledge check about, I need to suggest a Skill (or Lore) to the DM. My problem is that the categories for the non-Lore skills are a bit... vague.
What we have is:
Arcana - creatures of arcane significance
Nature - creatures of natural origin
Occultism - creatures of occult significance
Religion - creatures of religious significance
Society - humanoid society (I assume most "people" would fall under this)
Is the vagueness intentional? Or is there a more concise summary of what sort of creature can/should be identified using each skill? For the purposes of this question, I'm ignoring Lores as those are quite a bit more specific.
Does a Lich fall under Religion because they're undead? Or under Arcana because of the phylactery?
Do extraplanar creatures fall under Arcana because of understanding the universe? Or under Religion because they're closely associated with the homes of the Gods?
What, exactly, does Occultism cover?
Thanks for any insight you can share!
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You've got the table of general trait-to-skill matches for that, from the CRB;
Creature Trait Skills
Aberration Occultism
Animal Nature
Astral Occultism
Beast Arcana, Nature
Celestial Religion
Construct Arcana, Crafting
Dragon Arcana
Elemental Arcana, Nature
Ethereal Occultism
Fey Nature
Fiend Religion
Fungus Nature
Humanoid Society
Monitor Religion
Ooze Occultism
Plant Nature
Spirit Occultism
Undead Religion
But past that, yes, I think vagueness really is intentional, because every creature doesn't fit into a "one skill only" box, and where overlap seems appropriate, that bit of vagueness makes it easy as a GM to say "Yes, I think that skill could work here" or "yes, I could see that working, but at a slightly higher DC than the other skill".
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You've got the table of general trait-to-skill matches for that, from the CRB;
But past that, yes, I think vagueness really is intentional, because every creature doesn't fit into a "one skill only" box, and where overlap seems appropriate, that bit of vagueness makes it easy as a GM to say "Yes, I think that skill could work here" or "yes, I could see that working, but at a slightly higher DC than the other skill".Creature Trait Skills
Aberration Occultism
Animal Nature
Astral Occultism
Beast Arcana, Nature
Celestial Religion
Construct Arcana, Crafting
Dragon Arcana
Elemental Arcana, Nature
Ethereal Occultism
Fey Nature
Fiend Religion
Fungus Nature
Humanoid Society
Monitor Religion
Ooze Occultism
Plant Nature
Spirit Occultism
Undead Religion
Some of your examples are good because Hags (humanoids therefore Society) are iirc called out as an example where they might be valid for Occultism because of their association with Occult magic. Certainly you could make the same claim for liches and Arcana.
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Certainly you could make the same claim for liches and Arcana.
Any caster can be a lich so I don't see why it'd be Arcane specifically. as they could be associated with Occult, Primal or Divine just as easily.
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But past that, yes, I think vagueness really is intentional, because every creature doesn't fit into a "one skill only" box, and where overlap seems appropriate, that bit of vagueness makes it easy as a GM to say "Yes, I think that skill could work here" or "yes, I could see that working, but at a slightly higher DC than the other skill".
Or at the same DC but getting a bit different information.
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Some of your examples are good because Hags (humanoids therefore Society) are iirc called out as an example where they might be valid for Occultism because of their association with Occult magic. Certainly you could make the same claim for liches and Arcana.
That is the Hag Trait which is tied to Occultism. And since the other part of this comment was already answered here's something weird.
The Troll Trait is not tied to any Skill for some reason, so which skill would you use for those? I personally would say Society, as they used to be considered Giants, but that trait was removed in 2e, plus they are humanoid in nature.
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To my understanding, when a creature appears that I want to make a Recall Knowledge check about, I need to suggest a Skill (or Lore) to the DM. My problem is that the categories for the non-Lore skills are a bit... vague.
Recall Knowledge has the Secret trait, "The GM rolls the check for this ability in secret." Thus, the GM has to decide which skill is the appropriate one to roll, not the player. And the entiries in the Archives of Nethys, which the GM can see, tell which skill is the most appropriate. For example, identifying a Hollow Serpent, an undead snake, is "Recall Knowledge - Undead (Religion): DC 34," rather than Recall Knowledge - Animal (Nature).
I let the players roll the Recall Knowledge checks in my campaigns themselves, but I tell them which skill to use for the skill check. Pathfinder is not a guessing game about the rules.
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To my understanding, when a creature appears that I want to make a Recall Knowledge check about, I need to suggest a Skill (or Lore) to the DM.
As a GM using secret rolls I don’t require my players to suggest a skill. I look for the skill that gives them the best chance, within the confines of the valid skills someone else has shown. There will be times my players will remind me of a lore they have, and often they won’t try a recall knowledge unless they think the creature is likely to be covered by a skill they have.
I also choose to give information most useful to the one asking, and not something that would be most useful to another character, such s telling a sorcerer has resistance to fire, and telling a rogue the creature has resistance to physical.
As a GM, I'll usually tell players what skill is most relevant and will use that as a default, but am open to suggestions from the players if they want to try a skill they are better at. Many creatures have aspects or abilities that can be covered by more than one skill.
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Some of your examples are good because Hags (humanoids therefore Society) are iirc called out as an example where they might be valid for Occultism because of their association with Occult magic. Certainly you could make the same claim for liches and Arcana.That is the Hag Trait which is tied to Occultism. And since the other part of this comment was already answered here's something weird.
The Troll Trait is not tied to any Skill for some reason, so which skill would you use for those? I personally would say Society, as they used to be considered Giants, but that trait was removed in 2e, plus they are humanoid in nature.
The Giant trait definitely exists! Every creature with the Troll trait has it, except for Trollhounds, which are Beasts. The Giant trait says they're Humanoids, so Society would be the right skill to use. Nature would also probably be appropriate, but at a Hard DC.
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The Giant trait definitely exists! Every creature with the Troll trait has it, except for Trollhounds, which are Beasts. The Giant trait says they're Humanoids, so Society would be the right skill to use. Nature would also probably be appropriate, but at a Hard DC.Some of your examples are good because Hags (humanoids therefore Society) are iirc called out as an example where they might be valid for Occultism because of their association with Occult magic. Certainly you could make the same claim for liches and Arcana.That is the Hag Trait which is tied to Occultism. And since the other part of this comment was already answered here's something weird.
The Troll Trait is not tied to any Skill for some reason, so which skill would you use for those? I personally would say Society, as they used to be considered Giants, but that trait was removed in 2e, plus they are humanoid in nature.
Society is not listed as a skill to identify Trolls though. Those are Unspecific Lore (likely Giant Lore) and specific Lore (Troll Lore) only. Whereas other Giants have specific skills listed beyond the Lores.
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So is your argument even though that Giants say they're humanoid, that they don't count as Humanoid (capital H) for the purposes of being valid for RK via Society?
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Society is not listed as a skill to identify Trolls though. Those are Unspecific Lore (likely Giant Lore) and specific Lore (Troll Lore) only. Whereas other Giants have specific skills listed beyond the Lores.
I think this is an oversight of AoN. The DCs listed on the creature page aren't part of a creature's actual stat block, after all, and are generated by taking the standard DC for the creature's level and applying an adjustment based on its rarity.