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A character that is subject to a magical attack and saves knows that something attacked him.
That means that he will feel something when you cast a hex and fail. I consider that equivalent to "Hear the sound of battle", so a Perception check with a DC of -10 and a distance of 0.
So the sleeping character, if he saves, will make a perception check with a Dc of -10 with a +20 to the DC for sleeping, final DC 10.
If he fails the save it becomes more complicated. RAW the Evil Eye target doesn't don't feel anything specific, but the Hex says: "The witch can cause doubt to creep into the mind of a foe within 30 feet that she can see.". That seems is on the level of having a nightmare.
I would give him a Perception check to wake, with a base DC of 10. That is based on: "Hear the sound of a creature walking", not the same thing, but that DC is based on something that can make you anxious while sleeping. Then I would apply the +20 for sleeping to reach a total DC of 30.
Being the target of Greater consumption will allow another perception check to wake up. And the poison save will automatically wake up the target.
The poison save against the Tears of Death has the problem of the onset time. The save is immediate, but the paralysis starts after a minute. So you end up in the same room with a guy that is poisoned, knows that he is poisoned, and has several rounds to act.
All things considered, it seems a bad way to do it, with several points of failure.
You should remember that you can make a Coup de Grace against a sleeping target, he doesn't need to be paralyzed.
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He will not know who or what attacked him, the saves don't give that information, but if you are on the level of trying to kill him, I suspect he will not be so trusting of you. Waking up poisoned, with a guy in his room with a drawn weapon is a big giveaway of who is the culprit.
I don't agree with exactly what Diego has put forth, but I agree with the general process/idea.
The target of your hexes does know something has targeted them, and they would receive a perception check to recognize it (even though they are asleep) and for that to wake them up. The real question here is, what is the DC they need to meet? Ultimately, I'd probably make it a DC -10 but keep in mind the target has a penalty of 20 on the roll for being unconscious. This is for the initial usage of evil eye.
Bear in mind you may be enticed to cackle if the target makes the save, and they may make the save regardless of whether they wake up. Or they may wake up regardless of if they've made the save.
Whether or not they wake up or whether or not they make the save against evil eye, doesn't really impact what would happen next (assuming the target is within your hex range). Evil eye would only affect the outcome of saves (assuming you used it to reduce saves and not something else), but you're target has either woken up (and your plan is probably not going to go as you want at that point) or the target has remained asleep.
Assuming the target has remained asleep, you can chug the poison and attempt to redirect it via the hex. Although as a GM I would definitely be keeping track of your action economy. Remember drawing and using potions (and I would liken a poison at best to the potion) are separate actions so you want to be holding the poison already. If you do so, you should be able to use evil eye, then drink the poison, and then use Greater Consumption as an immediate action.
Anyways...there's a lot of opportunities for failure in your plan when coup-de-grace doesn't require a paralyzed target. Just sneak over to the target and attempt a coup-de-grace.
That’s a bit round-a-bout and unnecessary… sleeping creatures are considered helpless and therefore valid targets for coup-de-grace. There is no need to induce paralysis to accomplish your goal. The only risk involved is them succeeding their perception check while sleeping to notice you and wake up, and that risks persists for your planned route as well. If they wake up while your are attempting to force feed them the poison then your attempt would fail since they are nolonger helpless and therefore can resist.
As for the question regarding hexes waking sleeping targets… yes, the target could wake up as a result of you using a hex on them the same as if you used a spell on them.
To more directly answer your specific questions, evil eye wont cause them to automatically wake up they will need to make a perception check.
Remember that hexes are probably as obvious as spellcasting, requiring you to speak magical words (though not explicitly stated) so it would be obvious to anyone around you that you were doing something. Although, likely everyone will be asleep.
The also wont know they've been specifically targeted by your hex, but they may realize rather easily that you're doing something suspicious if they wake up.
And as Diego pointed out, your poison has a 1 minute onset time and may be enough (GM opinion) to wake them up without anything further. For sure any lethal damage would wake up a sleeping individual, I'm inclined to say that the poison would automatically wake them up. Leaving you with an awake individual who doesn't feel well and sees you acting suspiciously.
Small point of correction to both Diego’s and Claxton’s responses… the perception DC increase for sleeping creatures is NOT +20, it is +10.
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Honestly, the best plan is to:
1) Know the rest of your party? Are they going to be okay with you murdering this other person? If not...you probably don't want to do this. Or else you'll need to murder the rest of your party or be killed yourself.
2) If they're cool with it, you should ask for their help. Have them restrain the individual while you stab.
3) As a GM....I have rules against a player character killing another player character. Especially without the other player being aware of what's happening. It's very meta, but doing this sort of thing unexpectedly is the sort of thing that breaks up gaming groups. If I were the GM and you attempted this, it would result in your character being removed from the game. And possibly you too, assuming you were aware of the group's stance. I realized this doesn't apply to all or even many groups necessarily, but it's better to talk to the group (or at least GM) about this.
Hmmm, I could of sworn it was a +20 for sleep but I double checked and it is only +10.
So the target (worst case scenario) needs to make a DC 10 check to hear you speaking for the hex, but it might possibly be a DC 0. Depending on what value you choose from the perception chart for the base DC.
"Hear the details of a conversation" is DC 0 and I feel that is appropriate DC for hearing a hex. But some may count it as "hearing the sounds of battle".
I'm planning that my character is going to murder another PC.
I hope the GM and every single player is on board with this, if not, stop. Seriously, unwanted PvP is a total dick move.
Remember that hexes are probably as obvious as spellcasting, requiring you to speak magical words (though not explicitly stated) so it would be obvious to anyone around you that you were doing something.
"Remember"? How can we remember something that you made up? There's absolutely nothing that indicates hexes requiring verbal components, or being obvious. Indeed, the FAQ about Cackle makes explicit rules for that hex requiring an audible component, but makes no ruling for other hexes, even though this would've been a prime opportunity.
So no, there is no vocal component to hexes. A hex like Evil Eye wouldn't even have a "noticable effect" to identify its usage with the "Recall Intrigues" option of the Knowledge skill (which clearly talks about seeing the character, and thus not relevant for a sleeping character, anyway).
I said "probably" and "not explicitly stated". The rules provide no specifics (except the cackle FAQ), but I'm not at all buying that they have 0 give away. And I don't buy the argument that you should extend the lack of ruling in the cackle FAQ to say that other hexes don't.
Feel free to not run it that way, and I'm going to feel free to run it mine.
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Hmmm, I could of sworn it was a +20 for sleep but I double checked and it is only +10.
Same here.
Hexes are SU abilities, so they don't require speaking or gesturing unless the hex says differently, but they are magical effects, so the target will feel something if he makes a save. And hexes with an effect will have the target feeling something in most cases even if he fails it.
As often happen for the rules, there are so many kinds of hexes that it is not possible to make a generic ruling for all of them, your GM should decide how noticeable they are on a case-by-case basis.
As Derklord said, third persons generally need to see them in action to notice the effect, but the target, as he is the one affected, often will feel that something is happening.
As everyone has said, unless the GM and all the other layers are okay with this kind of behavior, murdering another PC is a very bad idea.
Hexes as raw have no perceptible effects, and don't even fall under the spell rules for getting a "tingling sensation" when you pass a save (you get nothing when you fail for a proper spell anyway). Hexes can be done in the middle of talking to someone with no obvious way to tell that they are anything more than the witch just giving you the stink eye if even that. They're supernatural so they don't have components, they don't have auras, they don't have anything that lets you know they are active.
Personally I think it's a dumb raw move and hated it even when it came out, as it allows s+!$ like this where you can just sit while the BBEG is monologuing and have a million debuffs all ready to go (especially with something like soothsayer to put them on delay). But RAW you can absolutely hex a sleeping person with as many things as you want before you kill them, instead of just killing them first.
Hexes as raw have no perceptible effects, and don't even fall under the spell rules for getting a "tingling sensation" when you pass a save (you get nothing when you fail for a proper spell anyway). Hexes can be done in the middle of talking to someone with no obvious way to tell that they are anything more than the witch just giving you the stink eye if even that. They're supernatural so they don't have components, they don't have auras, they don't have anything that lets you know they are active.
Personally I think it's a dumb raw move and hated it even when it came out, as it allows s#@% like this where you can just sit while the BBEG is monologuing and have a million debuffs all ready to go (especially with something like soothsayer to put them on delay). But RAW you can absolutely hex a sleeping person with as many things as you want before you kill them, instead of just killing them first.
Them being mostly supernatural abilities doesn’t exempt them from the manifestations rules… you very well can perceive a hex the same way you would perceive a spell or spell-like ability.
If I were to cast a silent & stilled Ill Omen would the target be blissfully unaware of the spell?
Yes, that is the entire point of spell manifestations (a dumb rule anyway) only applying to spells. Supernatural effects are intended to not have any manifestation, and many monsters and encounters are designed specifically with that in mind (even before we get to the ones that also use spells with those same factors). Should witch's ability maybe be a Spl instead of a Su, probably, but it's a Su which sits outside the rules of spell manifestations and the "you realize something attacked you if you save" rule, both of which are exclusive to spells and SLA's.
I said "probably" and "not explicitly stated".
You said "remember", acting as if it was a rule that we forgot. Also, using "probably" implies that you based your statement on something tangible, rather than it being a complete fabrication based on how you think the rules should be.
And I don't buy the argument that you should extend the lack of ruling in the cackle FAQ to say that other hexes don't.
Saying hexes have verbal components has a much basis in the rules as saying Power Attack has a verbal component and you have to shout "POWER ATTACK" every time you use it and that the feat doesn't work in a zone of Silence.
Hexes as raw [...] don't even fall under the spell rules for getting a "tingling sensation" when you pass a save
Very stricktly this is true, but the magic rules are full of rules that verbatim are only about "spells" that were nonetheless meant to apply to non-spell abilities, too. Like polymorph rules, which only talk about spells, but are indubiously meant to also apply to the supernatural ability Wild Shape.
The difference to the spell manifestations is that the CRB was written at a time where the writers thought that only talking about the most common situations was fine for rule text, and players were supposed to figure things out themself, whereas the FAQ on spell manifestations were written at a time where Paizo had realized the folly of that.
If I were to cast a silent & stilled Ill Omen would the target be blissfully unaware of the spell?
As per teh FAQ I linked above, "all spells have their own manifestations, regardless of whether or not they also produce an obvious visual effect". The FAQ does contain the vage "and the like", but saying they used that to talk about a whole different type of abilities, rather than component-less spells, would be a stretch.
Considering the real-life inspiration for the class, and hexes, not realizing you're being hexes could very well be completely intended. Wikipedia describes the Evil Eye as "usually given to a person when one is unaware."
Derklord, I realize this will seem complicated but I'm not saying that hexes have verbal components, as verbal components have very specific implications. Like you can't use it in a zone of silence.
Instead, what I'm suggesting is that as part of the act of hexing someone there are gestures or words spoken, but they would not need to be heard to function. Or that a zone of silence would prevent it. Or having unavailable hands would prevent it. But generally that there would be something done during the standard action (that provokes) that hex usage normally requires beyond staring intently for 3 seconds.
For me the common depiction of hexes that I'm familiar with involve both speaking and gestures. And while I'm not going to say that they're required like spell components and the implications that those have, I will say that you're doing something and it's noticeable by those around you as "not a normal activity".
But generally that there would be something done during the standard action (that provokes) that hex usage normally requires beyond staring intently for 3 seconds.
They aren't spells - there is no verbal or somatic component.
Supernatural abilitiesThey don't provoke an AoO.
Attacks of Opportunity
So the only way they are making noise or are noticeable etc is via GM fiat, because it certainly isn't RAW (or even RAI).
I think the OP probably has bigger problems though - because ganking another persons character is the fastest way to not have a group to play with anymore.
Hexes as raw [...] don't even fall under the spell rules for getting a "tingling sensation" when you pass a saveVery stricktly this is true, but the magic rules are full of rules that verbatim are only about "spells" that were nonetheless meant to apply to non-spell abilities, too. Like polymorph rules, which only talk about spells, but are indubiously meant to also apply to the supernatural ability Wild Shape.
The difference to the spell manifestations is that the CRB was written at a time where the writers thought that only talking about the most common situations was fine for rule text, and players were supposed to figure things out themself, whereas the FAQ on spell manifestations were written at a time where Paizo had realized the folly of that.
And yet the rule for when you even realize someone targeted you is specific to actual spells (where they are also breaking down things like how figments, harmless abilities, etc. all work), not supernatural abilities that have their own rules wrapped up together.
The FAQ also references art as if that was the basis of their rules or even vice versa, when they make several abilities and plots that immediately become worthless or break down when spell manifestations are shoehorned into abilities that don't need them or when there are no components.
Normally a wizard or sorcerer has to +2 to their spell level for most spells to get to that point and that's totally fine, and is it dumb that the witch gets that for free, probably yeah, but I also don't think witch should have been released the way it was.
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While there isn't a piece of text that says that a SU attack is noticeable, I have some trouble accepting the opinion that you don't have a way to notice when someone tries to affect your mind, body, or soul.
Noticing that you are spied magically requires a Perception check, generally at a DC of 24, and it is way less invasive than a direct attack.
Successful attacks often have their way to avoid being perceived (a Charmed person doesn't question why his behavior has changed), but successful attacks that "do something" to you and don't have an intrinsic effect that "hide" them should have a chance to be noticed even when the effect isn't so obvious. You will not know who or what attacked you, and maybe the effect isn't so obvious, but something can be noticed (can, it is not automatic).
The same thing for failed attempts, with the difference that the intrinsic effect stopping the target from noticing the attack, generally, will not work.
I think that the reason why it is not stated explicitly in the rules is that we are speaking of thousands of effects and spells, each one different, so GM adjudication works better than specifying how noticeable is an effect, and how that is modified by other things (feats, class abilities, etc.). When we consider the target and the attacker's abilities, the number of possible combinations probably reach hundreds of thousands.
Try this instead:
When they go to sleep, cast levitate on them....or 5 minutes to levitate their sleeping form up into the air at 20 feet per move action or 40 feet per round. Get them up over 200 feet and they're looking at 20d6 falling damage ...
levitate is personal or close range. a 20 level caster can levitate no higher then 25+(20/2)x5 ft = 75 away from himself. (without aid such as metamagic etc)
so one would need to start with casting levitate on oneself and go up in the air along with the target to properly pull this off.
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@Diego
"While there isn't a piece of text that says that a SU attack is noticeable, I have some trouble accepting the opinion that you don't have a way to notice when someone tries to affect your mind, body, or soul."
this is where sense motive comes along - it's not only for bluffs.
Specifically, the 'hunch' use of the skill is not an opposed check - rather a straight dc 20 check to tell if "You can get the feeling from another’s behavior that something is wrong, such as when you’re talking to an impostor. Alternatively, you can get the feeling that someone is trustworthy" (i belive that this goes the same for getting the feeling that some1 is untrustworthy).
though this is the kind of check the GM should roll by himself as metagaming a known failed check is hard when pvp is a factor.
so basically no matter how high the witch's bluff is (if she even have ranks in it) a dc 20 sense motive made when the target wake up (or maybe when he goes to sleep and the witch keep eyeing him) should give him a notice that something afoul is afoot.
Derklord, I realize this will seem complicated but I'm not saying that hexes have verbal components, as verbal components have very specific implications. Like you can't use it in a zone of silence.
Instead, what I'm suggesting is that as part of the act of hexing someone there are gestures or words spoken, but they would not need to be heard to function.
This makes no sense. You're saying the Witch both doesn't need to make a sound (i.e. isn't shut down by Silence), and does need to make a sound (can't keep her mouth shut).
If you would need to speak or gesture to use hexes, the rules would say so. Seduction for instance says "The witch uses enthralling movements", which means you couldn't use that hex when paralyzed. But the way ther Pathfinder rules work, things happen when rules say they happen, and there is zero mention of a general requirement to make noise or movements to use hexes.
Spell manifestations (an unwanted by-product of casting, not a requirement of casting!) aren't mentioned in the rules proper, but ban be inferred from rules like for Spellcraft, which makes no mention of only working on spells with specific components. I don't see anything doing so for hexes.
If you as a GM want to implement hex manifestations, fine, but be honest and upfront with that, and don't apply anything that doesn't apply to spells. Like, if a silent spell doesn't make a noice, a hex shouldn't, either.
And yet the rule for when you even realize someone targeted you is specific to actual spells (where they are also breaking down things like how figments, harmless abilities, etc. all work), not supernatural abilities that have their own rules wrapped up together.The same applies to the polymorph rules, are you claiming Wild Shape doesn't use them? There's a hex that says "The is an enchantment (compulsion) effect." [sic] are you claiming that hex is not mind-affecting because "All enchantments are mind-affecting spells." really only applies to spells and not that hex?
Normally a wizard or sorcerer has to +2 to their spell level for most spells to get to that point and that's totally fine, and is it dumb that the witch gets that for free, probably yeah
I'm not sure if I even want to reply to this, because you seem to have not the slightest understanding of balance. You seem to think that every single class should be able to the exact same thing for the exact same cost. Either thay, or you want that no class has something that is in any way better than your favourite class.
Classes are supposed to be different, and are supposed to be able to do things other classes can't. If you are unable to accept that, please don't comment on balancing or class design, because it will only look like whining.
related to my post above here is an interesting question:
can one use sense motive while sleeping to wake up? (say in a situation where he would have gotten a hunch of a danger or killing intent?). of course this is when there is some1 else who's reaction the sleeper sense - otherwise it's just a perception check.
- it's a repeating motif in many stories\shows (some 'true stories' as well) where some1 wakes up since he 'feel' something is off or got a bad vibe\dream etc. (his subconscious is working on alert mode?).
for me, as the clues one gain to use sense motive are mostly from his senses, id give the same penalties as perception checks while asleep.
(with similar bonuses for a fight nearby etc, maybe?)
And yet the rule for when you even realize someone targeted you is specific to actual spells (where they are also breaking down things like how figments, harmless abilities, etc. all work), not supernatural abilities that have their own rules wrapped up together.The same applies to the polymorph rules, are you claiming Wild Shape doesn't use them? There's a hex that says"The is an enchantment (compulsion) effect." [sic] are you claiming that hex is not mind-affecting because "All enchantments are mind-affecting spells." really only applies to spells and not that hex?
Normally a wizard or sorcerer has to +2 to their spell level for most spells to get to that point and that's totally fine, and is it dumb that the witch gets that for free, probably yeahI'm not sure if I even want to reply to this, because you seem to have not the slightest understanding of balance. You seem to think that every single class should be able to the exact same thing for the exact same cost. Either thay, or you want that no class has something that is in any way better than your favourite class.
Classes are supposed to be different, and are supposed to be able to do things other classes can't. If you are unable to accept that, please don't comment on balancing or class design, because it will only look like whining.
First off my favorite class is Fighter, I have no problem with other classes being stronger than it. I do have a problem with people putting words in my mouth.
Wildshape and Polymorph is a very obvious effect, you literally turn into something else; you also can only affect yourself with it (short of using specific spells (hence they follow spell rules), but it still has no components so unless someone sees you transform (or you choose to roar when you turn into an animal) no one who didn't see you transform will know you did it. If a hex has "is an enchantment (whatever)", then it is saying, "Now use those rules and only the rules specific to enchantment (whatever)". It isn't saying also now pull in other rules it doesn't reference.
My point isn't whining, my point is that several people have already balked at the idea that "witch gets to hex without being noticeable" despite that being RAW and most probably RAI. I am saying this is something you should balk at, especially when its a class that has virtually limitless ability usage that can be done all without anyone realizing they're doing it. Very rarely does any other monster get anything nearly similar, even the "intrigue" ones like Rakshasa which can detect thoughts at will, which absolutely would be useless if it had a manifestation, let alone someone erroneously applied the "metagame, someone 'attacked' you, spell only rule".
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My point isn't whining, my point is that several people have already balked at the idea that "witch gets to hex without being noticeable" despite that being RAW and most probably RAI.
The witch using the hex is (generally, some hex have specific rules) not noticeable. Being the target of a hex that does something to you should be noticeable unless the effect is one that masks itself.
Evil eye makes you doubt yourself to the point that you suffer a -2 to attacks or saves or skills. You can't miss noticing your sudden huge self-doubts (-2 is a serious penalty). It can be you remembering wetting your bed or your first failures at sword-swinging or because you are afraid of darkness, it doesn't matter, but you know that suddenly you are unsure of yourself. You don't know why, but the effect is here and you know that it is here.
You don't know what generated the self-doubt, barring a successful appropriate skill check, you don't know if it was generated by a SU ability, a form of mental disability that hasn't manifested till today, or the enemy fighter using the exact moves that humiliated you in your first day of training, but you notice the sudden drop in confidence.
My point isn't whining, my point is that several people have already balked at the idea that "witch gets to hex without being noticeable" despite that being RAW and most probably RAI.The witch using the hex is (generally, some hex have specific rules) not noticeable. Being the target of a hex that does something to you should be noticeable unless the effect is one that masks itself.
Evil eye makes you doubt yourself to the point that you suffer a -2 to attacks or saves or skills. You can't miss noticing your sudden huge self-doubts (-2 is a serious penalty). It can be you remembering wetting your bed or your first failures at sword-swinging or because you are afraid of darkness, it doesn't matter, but you know that suddenly you are unsure of yourself. You don't know why, but the effect is here and you know that it is here.
You don't know what generated the self-doubt, barring a successful appropriate skill check, you don't know if it was generated by a SU ability, a form of mental disability that hasn't manifested till today, or the enemy fighter using the exact moves that humiliated you in your first day of training, but you notice the sudden drop in confidence.
Sure, but that doesn't mean you have any idea that the guy standing in the corner was the one who specifically made you remember peeing your pants. That's the equivalent of a spell effect, not the manifestation. A spell manifestation is the thing that gives away you are the one who did it, and that was even the entire point of that rule when they shoehorned it in. Maybe the party member has a hunch if the person they know can do this did it to them when they're conscious (and not when they're asleep, helpless, and just having a momentary flash of bad dream), but even then the hex is worded that the typical person just suddenly gets that self doubting idea, without any realization of why the idea is there.
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Sure, but that doesn't mean you have any idea that the guy standing in the corner was the one who specifically made you remember peeing your pants. That's the equivalent of a spell effect, not the manifestation. A spell manifestation is the thing that gives away you are the one who did it, and that was even the entire point of that rule when they shoehorned it in. Maybe the party member has a hunch if the person they know can do this did it to them when they're conscious (and not when they're asleep, helpless, and just having a momentary flash of bad dream), but even then the hex is worded that the typical person just suddenly gets that self doubting idea, without any realization of why the idea is there.You don't know why, but the effect is here and you know that it is here.
You don't know what generated the self-doubt, barring a successful appropriate skill check, you don't know if it was generated by a SU ability, a form of mental disability that hasn't manifested till today, or the enemy fighter using the exact moves that humiliated you in your first day of training, but you notice the sudden drop in confidence.
Sorry if it was unclear, but that is exactly what I intended with "You don't know why" and "You don't know what generated the self-doubt".
Some appropriate skill check can give you that information, and sometimes it is self-evident, but, as a general rule, the act of hexing someone has no visible clue of it happening.I would have liked an extension and clarification of the SU rules when the witch was introduced, as giving a lot of active SU abilities to a class has generated a large number of rule discussions. But that is water under the bridge, nothing we can do about that today.