The question is in the title.
From its description it looks like it does, but I'm not sure and I'd like to know what you feel about that.
I'd say yes, it can work through walls as other imprecise senses do as well, like hearing.
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I'd say yes, it can work through walls as other imprecise senses do as well, like hearing.
Lifesense is not an imprecise sense
Tremorsense and Wavesense are.
7/7 monsters in the CRB have lifesense as a precise sense. It is only the Duskwalker feat which gives you a much shorter range compared to monsters and makes it imprecise.
So according to this logic it should not go through a wall as it is not (per se) an imprecise sense.
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The question is in the title.
From its description it looks like it does, but I'm not sure and I'd like to know what you feel about that.
What in the description makes you think this is the case?
It makes a comparison to distinguishing living/undead similar to color. You couldn't detect color through a wall - so can't be that part.
Having given some more thought to it:
You can't heal or harm through a wall. If positive(negative) energy is stopped by a wall then it seems sensible that lifesense is stopped as well - unless there is a good argument against it.
But so far whatever I find or can think of would rather say no.
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Is it XRay vision for life forms, or is it blocked by walls?
Being Precise or Imprecise does not matter. The parameters for Special Senses are up to the GM to determine.
So tell your GM a good story about how it works and you might be able to sway his opinion. With something odd like Lifesense a GM could reasonably go either way.
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What in the description makes you think this is the case?The question is in the title.
From its description it looks like it does, but I'm not sure and I'd like to know what you feel about that.
"Lifesense allows a monster to sense the vital essence of living and undead creatures within the listed range. The sense can distinguish between the positive energy animating living creatures and the negative energy animating undead creatures, much as sight distinguishes colors."
So, from the description, there's no restriction to your ability to sense with lifesense outside of range (unless I have missed a line somewhere else).
And my question was also about your feeling about Lifesense: Would you allow it to go through walls at your table or would you houserule otherwise?
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An ability specifically designed to detect undead which can't work on a corpse buried 6 feet under or in a stone coffin ain't much good, IMO. Otherwise it is basically just a crappier version of scent.
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I'd say yes, it can work through walls as other imprecise senses do as well, like hearing.Lifesense is not an imprecise sense
The feat says
You have a limited ability to sense life force, like your psychopomp forebears. You gain lifesense as an imprecise sense with a range of 10 feet. This allows you to sense the life force within living creatures and its counterforce that animates the undead, though you can't distinguish between the two.So we can assume it's an imprecise sense.
I doubt it would give the character X-Ray vision ( or something similar to see an aura beyond 9 feet of stone wall or ground ), but I expect it to work in situations like a room full of corpses, allowing you to detect that one of them is an undead, or to distinguish whether a cloaked beggar is human or undead at first glance.
I find it interesting that the creature ability Lifesense allows for determining if the "target" is living or undead (i.e. you can differentiate), but that the feat only allows you to sense the "target", but you cannot tell if its living or undead, just that it's there - "you can't distinguish between the two." So someone with lifesense from the feat cannot use it as an undead detector. Is the guy you're talking to alive or a vampire? Can't tell.
What in the description makes you think this is the case?The question is in the title.
From its description it looks like it does, but I'm not sure and I'd like to know what you feel about that."Lifesense allows a monster to sense the vital essence of living and undead creatures within the listed range. The sense can distinguish between the positive energy animating living creatures and the negative energy animating undead creatures, much as sight distinguishes colors."
So, from the description, there's no restriction to your ability to sense with lifesense outside of range (unless I have missed a line somewhere else).
And my question was also about your feeling about Lifesense: Would you allow it to go through walls at your table or would you houserule otherwise?
True but similar logic would have you seeing through walls with other senses as well. The rules often omit basic stuff like this. Its totally up to you as a GM to visualise what is happening.
I have tremorsense and wavesense work as long as you are both in touch with or touching surface or body of water. Which is how it is described.
I have echolocation work around corners but not through walls. Sound waves bounce.
I have scent work through time (you know where a creature has been with reasonable limits) and through non sealed barriers.
I treat lifesense like normal vision, but I consider that every creature emits life energy like light. So an opaque solid barrier would stop it. But you might see some leakage through cracks. If a creature was waiting around a corner, you would see a glow at that corner. I think that is a pretty good sense.
I'm with Gortle - it is for the most part up to the GM to determine exactly what is and isn't possible.
Some other options for precise or imprecise senses that are not vision (and therefore not very intuitive for us IRL humans who only have vision as a precise sense):
* Precise Senses has a clause for things that are obscured by terrain - it says that the creature then has to make a Seek check in order to detect. That could be used for a precise sense that is technically capable of penetrating the wall. Have the wall be an obscuring terrain feature.
* The precise sense could simply be downgraded to an Imprecise Sense if there is a barrier like a wall in the way.
* The precise or imprecise sense could be downgraded to a Vague Sense also.
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And some ways of comparing a fantasy sense into vision:
* If it penetrates completely and is still precise through the barrier, then it would be like looking through clear glass.
* If it gets downgraded to an imprecise sense, then it could be like looking through smoke or fog or looking at something in dim light.
* If it gets downgraded to a vague sense, then it could be like looking at something through a thin curtain or lace sheet.
Ooh, this is an interesting question indeed. It's one of a handful of ways where the rules don't quite clearly dictate how a supernatural thing interacts with a mundane process.
Strictly speaking, there's nothing that says that Lifesense works through vision, and is therefore blocked by opaque objects like light, but it's also perfectly reasonable to imagine (and indeed many here have defaulted to this assumption). A creature in pitch darkness or who was blinded would still be able to detect another through Lifesense because so far as we know it doesn't require vision to work. On the other hand, there are no explicit barriers to lifesense and physical objects make just as much sense as anything.
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Similarly, my group has been trying to think of sensible ways to end something like a persistent negative or persistent good damage. Assisted Recovery offers examples like smothering fire and washing of acid, but when it comes to fully supernatural damage types, it can be hard to picture what could do it. One of my favourite so far is demons using evil or impure thoughts and/or profanity to try to break the paladin's persistent good damage.
oh, EDIT: Here's something which may interest this chat. The akata's lifesense implicitly works through the walls of its cocoon. Make of that what you may, but it's a point in favour of the idea that physical barriers, or at least not all physical barriers will block perception of life energy.
True but similar logic would have you seeing through walls with other senses as well. The rules often omit basic stuff like this. Its totally up to you as a GM to visualise what is happening.
The difference being that everyone conceives sight in a similar way.
The Monk can get Lifesense through Ki Sense, and there's definitely a trope of "I feel a strong aura around" (in Star Wars for example). I like Sibelius idea of downgrading to a Vague Sense: You know that there's an aura around, but you can't pinpoint it exactly unless you have direct line of sight/effect.
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I treat lifesense like normal vision, but I consider that every creature emits life energy like light. So an opaque solid barrier would stop it. But you might see some leakage through cracks. If a creature was waiting around a corner, you would see a glow at that corner. I think that is a pretty good sense.
In my humble opion there are at least 4 different issues to consider when it comes to special senses.
1) Is the sense considered active or passive. Our normal vision is a passive sense, i.e. we can only perceive objects that directly emit or reflect light. Counterexamples of active senses would be the typical uses of echolocation, RADAR or comic book X-Ray vision.
2) Is the target active or passive. While a human can of course not look through a wall somebody with X-Ray sense (or a Geiger counter) might be very easily be able to determine a source of radiation behind said wall. Same might be true for a creature or object actively projecting positive or negative energy.
3) Is the barrier able to block either (sense and/or target)? As detailed most solid barriers block normal vision because visible light usually can not pass through solid matter. Things might be very difficult however for somebody with X-Ray vision or X-Ray sense, as most materials will not be able to block X-Rays that easily.
4) In game terms, is it a precise or imprecise sense which may or may not be related to active or passive senses. For example normal vison is a passive sense but also a precise one because our brains are fully set for stereoscopic vision. Normal Hearing also is a passive sense for a human, but an imprecise one, as our brains can usually not deal with the very small transit time differences from one ear to the other. On the other hand Echolocation as found in bats is both an active and precise sense.
tl;dr Many factors involved and probably "ask your GM" territory.
I couldn't find anything about foiling special senses in a generic way but just the lvl 7 feat meant for stealth/sneak, which seems to be useless here ( unless the character using lifesense is blind or has their eyes closed ).
The Foil Sense feat does work. The Rogue presumably knows about special senses thats why he has taken the feat. So he knows how to defeat it. Maybe he coats himself in a special mud and that blocks the sense, perhaps its lead paint, perhaps he masks his scent. Its just up to the GM and the player with the feat to find something that they can agree makes sense, based on however the GM says the sense works. But the Rogue has to know what sense he is trying to foil.
I thought the duskwalker feat was the only one existing ( resulting in 10 feet reach ), but given that we have a 30 feet reach feat, I'll probably treat it like the sense evil champion feat, when it comes down to what can a character detect ( in terms of aura strength. Here's the aura strength table for reference ) and possibilities for the enemy to counter it ( through deception, to fake it ).
Sense Evil and Ki Sense don't have at all the same use. Sense Evil is used to determine if the people you're speaking to are evil, it's not useful to detect anything as you don't sense evil immediately but only eventually (I hardly imagine the party spending hours waiting in a dungeon for the Paladin's sense to trigger).
I couldn't find anything about foiling special senses in a generic way but just the lvl 7 feat meant for stealth/sneak, which seems to be useless here ( unless the character using lifesense is blind or has their eyes closed ).The Foil Sense feat does work. The Rogue presumably knows about special senses thats why he has taken the feat. So he knows how to defeat it. Maybe he coats himself in a special mud and that blocks the sense, perhaps its lead paint, perhaps he masks his scent. Its just up to the GM and the player with the feat to find something that they can agree makes sense, based on however the GM says the sense works. But the Rogue has to know what sense he is trying to foil.I dont' quite follow you.
What feat are you talking about?I was referring to the generic foil senses ( a skill feat that only requires master stealth ).
Apart from that, being a normal sense ( regardless it's imprecise or not ) has to be foiled in some way, but what's missing ( but it's ok, given the large amount of possibilities ) is a specific way to counteract each specific sense.
Lifesense is no different from any other sense after all, and because so it can be foiled ( how is up to the DM, and I was just offering my point of wiew by saying that I'd have used the sense evil mechanics if I had been in a similar situation but with lifesense ).
The same one as you.
Foil Senses requires you to do something to foil the senses, it just doesn't specify what that is.
I thought the duskwalker feat was the only one existing ( resulting in 10 feet reach ), but given that we have a 30 feet reach feat, I'll probably treat it like the sense evil champion feat, when it comes down to what can a character detect ( in terms of aura strength. Here's the aura strength table for reference ) and possibilities for the enemy to counter it ( through deception, to fake it ).Sense Evil and Ki Sense don't have at all the same use. Sense Evil is used to determine if the people you're speaking to are evil, it's not useful to detect anything as you don't sense evil immediately but only eventually (I hardly imagine the party spending hours waiting in a dungeon for the Paladin's sense to trigger).You actually sense evil immediatly ( if your argument was "though you might not do so instantly", it does just mean that it's not granted for you to do so, allowing the DM to properly run adventures ), starting from creatures of lvl 6+ ( the aura is going to increase depends the evil creature's level ).
And a champion is not allowed to "try again" or "expending more hours" since the creature is immune for one day if they succeed a deception check against the champion class DC ( a creature that it's already trying to conceal its alignment. So they won't know in any way that the champion is going to use such a feat, though the might already been in incognito ).
There's no "people you are speaking to".
I don't know what do you intend with the "eventually", since it's instant and can only be avoided by a successful deception check.
ps: obviously, being an imprecise sense, the champion will have hard time dealing with crowds or croweded places, since they won't be able to pin point ( but there will be different ways to check out whether a target is evil or not, so it's not a big deal. Also, it's a lvl 8 feat, not something meant to...
"When in the presence of an aura of evil that is powerful or overwhelming, you eventually detect the aura, though you might not do so instantly, and you can't pinpoint the location."
So, it's eventually and not necessarily instantly (in case one doesn't get the word eventually).For me, it's an obvious plot armor, as Detect Evil has been far too often used to ruin stories (and no, Ring of non detection was not enough as I've even heard of parties that were asking for their employee to remove all their valuables before being subjected to Detect Evil).
So Sense Evil is a Vague Sense with no range that only works 'eventually'. It's not at all useful to detect anyone, it's useful to know that someone in the council is evil, or that there's evil in this dungeon.
Applying Sense Evil rules to Ki Sense would make Ki Sense absolutely useless.
"You detect positive Ki around you.
- You mean I detect the party?
- ..."
That would be up to the DM ( if I were the DM, talking about lifesense, I'd stick with the sense evil mechanics since they seem to properly work )
Sure, but then the question would be: Why anyone would ever take Ki Sense if you handle it that way? You would get nearly nothing out of a level 12 feat...
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It's an Uncommon feat, so if a GM really wants to play with hidden undeads, they can forbid the feat.
Also, at level 12+, detecting that a creature is undead is not really incredible to me. There are some stories for low levels and others for high levels.
But giving it the effects of Sense Evil would make it useless. There are tons of low level feats to get extra senses (Scent mainly), so I expect a level 12 feat to give me something I can't do with just Scent. Detecting life/undeath behind walls is the kind of things I'd pay a level 12 feat for.
Hold up. I wouldn't say there's no counter. If a creature wants to hide from someone with Lifesense, all they need to do is take a stealth action that would foil that sense. Example given in the book is stepping lightly to foil tremorsense with Sneak.
It would be easier to do this if you establish some kind of cover or concealment specifically for life energy, whether that's hiding among bushes so that your life energy is disguised among theirs, etc. In Carrion Crown there is a region which is so filled with a storm of negative energy that the party are considered disguised (I don't think it's specified if concealed or otherwise) to the 1e lifesense even without resorting to stealth.
Perhaps think of lifesense like a life equivalent of heat vision. Living creatures detect as warm bodies even though obstacles, but can be disguised among other warm bodies or hot environments. Undead creatures are notable colder than a background environment which doesn't include negative energy.
On the other hand, if we need an undead creature which pretends to be living, I would think that could be handled with sufficient Disguise checks. Presumably it already has to do this to hide the usual signs of being dead, it may as well add in a trick to hide its negative aura, such as wearing a coat woven with living plants, or a talisman charged with positive energy. If these don't sound appealing, perhaps the disguised undead knows some magic which will hide their void aura, or simply has learned an ability that allows them to foil special senses when they want to pretend to be living.
Apologies, there might be just a touch of confusion. My suggestion was that an undead in plain sight would indeed be using the Deception skill to Disguise themselves from those using Lifesense. The first half of my post is to point out that it is still possible to sneak around a creature which has Lifesense using traditional Stealth checks as long as the creature taking the Sneak/Hide actions is taking precautions to hide from lifesense.
The utility of Foil Senses is that you are always taking the aforementioned precautions against special senses without needing to specify or be aware of them in advance.
I never meant to imply that Stealth would be enough to convince another creature that you are not undead. That obviously is a function of disguise. However, whether you are in plain sight or not, you might still attempt to hide your presence from Lifesense (perhaps for no reason unless the creature you're hiding from has no vision--reasonably anyone might be suspicious if they could see a person whose life aura they could not detect, though it might be profitable to pretend to be a really finely made golem instead of an undead in these cases, which of course would soon involve a Deception check anyway)