Good day, fellow Pathfinder's!
Had an idea that I believe works a certain way, but there's a seed of doubt, so I figured I should reach out to y'all!
Cavalier Challenge adds your Cavalier level to your melee damage rolls.
What if you had the ability to cast Spiritual Weapon through multiclassing or the like?
Would you add +Cavalier level to the Spiritual Weapon's damage?
I'm thinking yes because...
1 - It's a melee attack that you are rolling.
2 - It draws on you for it's bonuses.
3 - Challenge does not specify that they must be adjacent or within reach, only that it applies to attacks in melee, which Spiritual Weapon does.
I'm pretty sure you add challenge damage to it.
Weird as that may be. But I hesitate.
Super neat and very specific situation.
Thoughts?
I like how you think but I'd have to say no. It might draw on your BAB and wisdom score to determine its attack bonus, but it is not the character. One specific line of text is a big red flag to me:
Your feats or combat actions do not affect the weapon.
Challenge, in and of itself, is a combat action.
A fair assessment, but still I'm uncertain.
Indeed I had considered your quoted text. However, the conclusion I came to was for weapon-specific feats (Weapon Focus/Spec) and things like Power Attack and the like, which are actually combat actions.
Challenge is not something you keep activating. It's an ability more than say Vital Strike. It's a broad buff that doesn't care for what type of weapon or distance from foe, but rather form of attack, and it applies for the entirety of combat on all applicable actions. Spells that you generate are considered in all ways attacks made by you (see things like Invisibility and Sanctuary which Spiritual Weapon would break).
Also, to support that the quoted text is not a blanket application;
-- Spiritual Guardian (Feat)
That feat is a broad application - for the spell - vs a specific application regarding the type of weapon or special action, which I believe the quoted text is meant to address. Whereas Challenge simply applies to any of your attacks in Melee, and that it would likewise apply to Chill Touch and Shocking Grasp, keeps me on the fence.
[EDIT1: Also, Challenge does not effect the weapon (such as a Magus's Arcane Pool) as the line of text addresses - but rather YOU and by proxy the spell attack that belongs to you]
[EDIT2: Thinking more, Challenge says: "The cavalier’s melee attacks deal extra damage whenever the attacks are made against the target of his challenge." - meaning that it does not actually modify the weapon as is prohibited above, but rather the outcome. The spell is your attack, and the attack is performed in melee. I'm still leaning yes -- but I'm thinking it might be up to the GM really.]
Sorry, I just can't follow your logic. The Cavalier is not attacking when using Spiritual weapon. The Cavalier simply directs the weapon to attack and it is making the attacks independent of the character. Challenge explicitly only effects the melee attacks the Cavalier is making against his challenged target.
If we expand the more loose reading of the rules beyond this specific situation, it has far reaching effects on a large number of other abilities. I cannot, in good faith, do that.
As for the Spiritual Guardian feat, that is an example of a specific feat overriding the normal rules. It has no application or implication beyond that feat and the spell(s) in question.
The biggest issue is that the spiritual weapon acts as a separate entity even though it is fully under your command. You are not attacking. It draws its BAB and Wisdom from you signifying your strength and power being used in the creation of the entity, but that is where the connection ends. You do not apply any bonuses that you get to your attack or damage to its attack and damage. It is not you. It is just like using a Dancing Weapon (except better since it can potentially hit a target without needing to nat20)
Fair, well said, understood and agreed!
Thanks for batting this back and forth with me.
This got my head in the right space on it.
All the above, plus:
It strikes as a spell, not as a weapon
Aye, that was actually the very reason for the first thought;
"The cavalier’s melee attacks deal extra damage whenever the attacks are made against the target of his challenge. This extra damage is equal to the cavalier’s level."In zero place does it say the Cavalier's melee attack has to be with a weapon. So it still works with like, Chill Touch or Shocking Grasp and the like. Just not something so external as Spiritual Weapon / Ally.
Sure, as long as it is a melee (touch) attack, it qualifies. I've got no reason to disagree with that. So long as it is actually the cavalier making the melee (touch) attack.
*narrows eyes and re-evaluates the potential for the VMC option for Cavalier for spellcasters*
Spiritual weapon is not a melee attack it is a ranged attack. The description of the spell specifies medium range (100ft +10ft/level). Just because it is usually takes the form of a melee weapon does not change that. The description also states that it attacks as a spell not a weapon.
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All the above, plus:
It strikes as a spell, not as a weaponAye, that was actually the very reason for the first thought;
"The cavalier’s melee attacks deal extra damage whenever the attacks are made against the target of his challenge. This extra damage is equal to the cavalier’s level."In zero place does it say the Cavalier's melee attack has to be with a weapon. So it still works with like, Chill Touch or Shocking Grasp and the like. Just not something so external as Spiritual Weapon / Ally.
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
...
attacks foes at a distance,
Melee Attacks: With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.) Some melee weapons have reach, as indicated in their descriptions. With a typical reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can’t strike adjacent foes (those within 5 feet).
It strikes like a spell, not like a touch attack that delivers a spell, it attacks at range.
I don't see on what basis you think it is a melee attack.
Given that Order of the Blossom's Challenge specifically states it affects spells and SLA's, I would assume any Challenge that does not state it affects spells and SLA's does not affect spells and SLA's.
Given that Order of the Blossom's Challenge specifically states it affects spells and SLA's, I would assume any Challenge that does not state it affects spells and SLA's does not affect spells and SLA's.
I am not sure how you are applying the effects of that particular challenge to this particular issue on adding damage to the melee touch attacks made the by cavalier in melee combat.
Whenever an order of the blossom cavalier issues a challenge, the target of the challenge takes a –1 penalty on saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities used by fey or by the cavalier. This penalty increases by 1 for every 4 levels the cavalier has. An order of the blossom cavalier can’t issue a challenge against any creature of the fey type unless that creature has the blighted fey template.
This challenge imposes a penalty on saves. It says nothing about adding damage to spells or spell-like abilities.