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Extension of All (Ex): Through an aeon’s connection to the multiverse, it gains access to strange and abstruse knowledge that filters through all existence. Much of the knowledge is timeless, comprising events long past, present, and potentially even those yet to come. Aeons gain a racial bonus equal to 1/2 their racial Hit Dice on all Knowledge checks. This same connection also binds them to other aeons. As a result, they can communicate with each other freely over great distances as if using telepathy. This ability also works across planes, albeit less effectively, allowing the communication of vague impressions or feelings, not specific details or sights. Due to the vast scope of the aeon race’s multiplanar concerns, though, even the most dire reports of a single aeon rarely inspire dramatic or immediate action.
Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.
While RAW is unclear, I wouldn't count the master's hit dice as race hit dice, as it calls for a specific set of HD.
Extension of All (Ex): Through an aeon’s connection to the multiverse, it gains access to strange and abstruse knowledge that filters through all existence. Much of the knowledge is timeless, comprising events long past, present, and potentially even those yet to come. Aeons gain a racial bonus equal to 1/2 their racial Hit Dice on all Knowledge checks. This same connection also binds them to other aeons. As a result, they can communicate with each other freely over great distances as if using telepathy. This ability also works across planes, albeit less effectively, allowing the communication of vague impressions or feelings, not specific details or sights. Due to the vast scope of the aeon race’s multiplanar concerns, though, even the most dire reports of a single aeon rarely inspire dramatic or immediate action.Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.While RAW is unclear, I wouldn't count the master's hit dice as race hit dice, as it calls for a specific set of HD.
on the contrary, since the familiar ability to use his master's hd doesn't specify the type of hd (racial, class or bonus) it should count for any of them.
the same as if the race ability would take into account only combat feats and the familiar ability would talk about feats in general. that would include combat feats in it.
also are you saying that the words "..For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice.." talk about class HD here?
it should be talking about racial hd since that is what the familiar have before turning into one. and the ability say he uses his master's character level or it's own hd which ever is higher.
can't be clearer that it talk about counting them for the familiar's racial hd.
I certainly lean towards allowing the master's character level to count for that purpose. I do the same for calculating the poison DC of a familiar and that relies on racial HD as well.
I don't think the RAW is unclear on the matter. It simply isn't precise enough to satisfy everyone.
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can't be clearer that it talk about counting them for the familiar's racial hd.
LOL. Bold statement.
If it is so clear, can you give me a definition of "effect" supported by appropriate rules citations?AFAIK, generally, racial/type abilities aren't considered effects for the creature that has them.
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I certainly lean towards allowing the master's character level to count for that purpose. I do the same for calculating the poison DC of a familiar and that relies on racial HD as well.
I don't think the RAW is unclear on the matter. It simply isn't precise enough to satisfy everyone.
I gues that settles it for me. Thanks everyone!
(was on a trip so didn't see this until now)
can't be clearer that it talk about counting them for the familiar's racial hd.LOL. Bold statement.
If it is so clear, can you give me a definition of "effect" supported by appropriate rules citations?AFAIK, generally, racial/type abilities aren't considered effects for the creature that has them.
sorry are you saying the hd stated in any of the familiar creatures state blocks are class hd? or any other kind of hd other then racial?
is the hd in any of the following NOT racial hd?https://www.aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Butterfly/Moth
https://www.aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Cat
https://www.aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Chicken
https://www.aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Cockroach
https://www.aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=King%20Crab
i can go on and even put them in nice looking links but there are so many of them (actuality all of them)
in the cat's line that read : "hp 3 (1d8–1)" is the part about "1d8-1" not talk about it's racial hd? (animal racial hd) the same goes for the rest.
so when the familiar rules for calculating it's hd say:
"
For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher"
it's normal hd total is it not racial hd being talked about?
and so if the master for some reason has less hd then it's familiar (or improved familiar) th familiar uses it's own racial hd to calculate effects that ask what it's hd. that mean this rule allow the master's hd to stand instead of it if it is greater. as in the master hd (usually class hd) stand for the creatures hd even when they are sometimes used by abilities that call for racial ones.
i don't know what this has to do with "a definition of "effect" supported by appropriate rules citations", my English was never that great, but it seem to me that the familiar hd are racial ones. and when the familiar rules say we use ether them or the master's (which we both would agree are usually class hd) it shows the rules don't give a $%# of the kind of hd that are being used to substitute. so the master's class hd can be used for abilities of the familiar even if they talk about racial ones. so any effect\ability\whatever-you-want-to-call-it that make a calculation based on the familiar's hd will use it's original racial hd or the master's whoever is greater.
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sorry are you saying the HD stated in any of the familiar creatures state blocks are class HD? or any other kind of hd other then racial?
is the hd in any of the following NOT racial hd?
The familiar gets the HD for effects. Not for other stuff.
I am saying that the Paracletus ability isn't an effect. It is a racial ability.
"Effect" is one of the most nebulous terms in Pathfinder. It has never been defined.
At one time (2010) Bulmahn said this:
Hey there folks,
Alternate racial favored class bonuses are not "an effect", and hence do not qualify under the clause presented in the "half" races.
Sorry charlie... :-)
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Then it was changed:
Half-Elf or Half-Orc: Can a character of either of these races select human racial favored class options?
Yes. Half-elves and half-orcs may select racial favored class options, archetypes, traits, and so on, as if they were a full member of both races (a half-elf can select elf and human rules elements, a half-orc can select human and orc rules elements).
Edit 9/26/13: This is a reversal of an earlier ruling. This resolves a discrepancy between this FAQ, another APG FAQ, and a Core Rulebook FAQ.
posted September 2013 | back to top
But only to keep it in line with:
Half-Elf or Half-Orc: Can a character of either of these races select human racial archetypes (such as from Advanced Race Guide?
Yes. Half-elves and half-orcs may select racial favored class options, archetypes, traits, and so on, as if they were a full member of both races (a half-elf can select elf and human rules elements, a half-orc can select human and orc rules elements).
Edit 9/26/13: This is a reversal of an earlier ruling. This resolves a discrepancy between this FAQ and two Advanced Player's Guide FAQs.
posted March 2013 | back to top
bypassing completely the "it is an effect" part.
That is how clear the term "effect" is. Not even Paizo had a clear idea of what it was.
From my point of view, an effect is something that "happens", not a static ability. The familiar has the HD to resist the effect of Holy Word or of Circle of Death, not for the skill points or for the Aeon ability.
Probably it has them for its spell-like abilities if they are HD dependant as they have an effect on others.
So, I am asking you if you have an example that shows the opposite.
The links in your post mean nothing, I don't even get what are you trying to say, as you have shot to an unrelated tangent. Maybe you should re-read what I wrote.
since skill ranks are already talked in the familiar rules, that is in fact something that MIGHT have been included in effects but was specifically ruled in a separate way.
i can only go by English in which an effect is something that make a change in another thing. and as the number of hd (racial or other) the familiar have has an 'effect' on the bonus to knowledge this ability grant i would sum that it's an effect until proven otherwise.
your whole point is based on a line from a forum ruling (not even a faq) that was later changed, without explicitly telling why, it might be to be in line with other faq and it might be that effect do include racial static things.
the way it stands "Extension of All " is an effect that is related to hd, the same as a poison's\breath attack dc or any other things that changes along with the creatures hd (that are not already included in the familiar rules, like feats, ranks etc that have their own ruling) and should use ether the familiar hd or it's master's which ever is higher ,just as the familiar rules say it does.
what you ask is to keep a separate track of the familiar's hd before it became familiar for specific racial abilities and a separate track for other abilities that do count the hd of ether it or the master. without even being clear on what goes where.
You are saying 'this is an effect, but that is not. Even though in plain english it is. Pathfinder doesnt condider it as such'
And your proof is a forum ruling that later on was over-ruled and even if it wasn't it still doesnt even talk about this ability or explain why one thing is an effect and another isnt. So you still cant use it as a defenltion even if it was a legit standing rulling.
You ask me to prove that pathfinder has a defenition of effect that works the same as it does in english. Because you belive it doesnt. while what you bring as proof that it isnt is an iverturned rule from the forum?(one that doesnt even point to what pathfinder defenition is anyway)
I think that my understanding that both pathfinder and english use similar defenition stands. Unless you actully have a concrete proof to show otherwise.
Let me ask you this. Do you believe that before it became a familiar its own hd had no 'effect' on said ability? Because if not what kind of bonus did it get?
And if it did then the familar rules say that you should count its master hd once its greater. Are you going to seperate the effect before and after becoming a familiar. If so why? And on what ground?
Look at it from my point of view. Before you posted what Jason Bulmahn wrote i (and probebly many others) never even seen it. All i have to work with is the published rules and faq. And nowhere have i encountered something along the line of:
"In abilites relation to 'effects' being calculated are only x efects and not y..."
So unless you have something better then 'this guy once wrote on the forum something that was later ruled wrong but i belive part is right even though nothing was explained as to why it was wrong to begin with...' Id kinda have to go with what i actually have in the rules.
For all i know the reason it was overruled was that one of his buddies called him and said: "Dude you'r just wrong, half orc\elf favored etc is an effect.."
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your whole point is based on a line from a forum ruling (not even a faq) that was later changed, without explicitly telling why, it might be to be in line with other faq and it might be that effect do include racial static things.
I used that because it is the easiest thing to copy. If you have the time, parse the CRB searching effect and look if it ever appears in a way that supports your interpretation.
I am going from memory, so I can miss something, but I am pretty sure that there is no piece of text that use effect your way.Two on-line dictionaries definition of effect:
effect
noun
noun: effect; plural noun: effects1. a change which is a result or consequence of an action or other cause.
"the lethal effects of hard drugs"2. the lighting, sound, or scenery used in a play, film, or broadcast.
"the production relied too much on spectacular effects"3. personal belongings.
"the insurance covers personal effects"
effect
Definition of effect
(Entry 1 of 2)
1 : something that inevitably follows an antecedent (such as a cause or agent)2
a : a distinctive impression the color gives the effect of being warm
b : the creation of a desired impression her tears were purely for effect
c(1) : something designed to produce a distinctive or desired impression —usually used in plural
(2) effects plural : special effects
3 : the quality or state of being operative : operation the law goes into effect next week — see also take effect
4 : power to bring about a result : influence the content itself of television … is therefore less important than its effect — Current Biography — see also take effect
5 effects plural : movable property : goods personal effects
6 : an outward sign : appearance
7 : accomplishment, fulfillment
8
a : purport, intent
b : basic meaning : essence
in effect
: in substance : virtually the … committee agreed to what was in effect a reduction in the hourly wage — Current Biography
to the effect
: with the meaning issued a statement to the effect that he would resigneffect verb
effected; effecting; effectsDefinition of effect (Entry 2 of 2)
transitive verb
1 : to cause to come into being
2a : to bring about often by surmounting obstacles : accomplish effect a settlement of a dispute
b : to put into operation the duty of the legislature to effect the will of the citizens
i can only go by English in which an effect is something that make a change in another thing. and as the number of hd (racial or other) the familiar have has an 'effect' on the bonus to knowledge this ability grant i would sum that it's an effect until proven otherwise.
The dictionaries don't seem to agree with your definition. Effects require an active agent, a racial trait is a passive modifier. It is not doing anything when you use the skill, it is a modifier that is already part of the skill.
you are realy good at bolding out only the part that suit you. lets see if i can do the same:
your whole point is based on a line from a forum ruling (not even a faq) that was later changed, without explicitly telling why, it might be to be in line with other faq and it might be that effect do include racial static things.I used that because it is the easiest thing to copy. If you have the time, parse the CRB searching effect and look if it ever appears in a way that supports your interpretation.
I am going from memory, so I can miss something, but I am pretty sure that there is no piece of text that use effect your way.Two on-line dictionaries definition of effect:
effect
noun
noun: effect; plural noun: effects1. a change which is a result or consequence of an action or other cause.
"the lethal effects of hard drugs" (me here: the creature's hd effect it's bonus for the knowledge before it turned into a familiar. after it's ether his or it's owner. same effect, different source.. if it doesn't have racial hd before it doesn't have the bonus since it's, along with the ability, is the 'cause' of the bonus)2. the lighting, sound, or scenery used in a play, film, or broadcast.
"the production relied too much on spectacular effects"3. personal belongings.
"the insurance covers personal effects"
...effect
Definition of effect
(Entry 1 of 2)
1 : something that inevitably follows an antecedent (such as a cause or agent) (me here, agent doesn't need to be active, hack an agent can also be a lack of something, like lack of sunlight or oxygen)2
a : a distinctive impression the color gives the effect of being warm
b : the creation of a desired impression her tears were purely for effect
c(1) : something designed to produce a distinctive or desired impression —usually used in plural
(2) effects plural : special effects
3 : the quality or state of being operative : operation the law goes into effect next week — see also take effect
4 : power to bring about a result : influence the content itself of television … is therefore less important than its effect — Current Biography — see also take effect
5 effects plural : movable property : goods personal effects
6 : an outward sign : appearance
7 : accomplishment, fulfillment
8
a : purport, intent
b : basic meaning : essence
in effect
: in substance : virtually the … committee agreed to what was in effect a reduction in the
(the quote was too long and got short here)
"The dictionaries don't seem to agree with your definition. Effects require an active agent, a racial trait is a passive modifier. It is not doing anything when you use the skill, it is a modifier that is already part of the skill."
nice twisting the words there, one definition of effect refer to an action, which is one part of the 1st definition you found and then you added THAT to the 'agent' found in the 2nd turning it into 'active agent'. which was never even written in any of the quotes you brought!
so lets see. can an effect be an agent or "result or consequence of..a cause" - yes
can that be said about racial hd\familiar ability to count it's hd as something else?
again yes.
so from your own quotes it seem the dictionary actually work nicely for my own definition, as long as you don't go ahead and twist it to only say what you want it to say.
so dictionary work fine for me, and so far you still haven't brought any evidence that pathfinder definition of 'effect' is only for this so called 'active effects'.
good luck with that.
also also:
"It is not doing anything when you use the skill, it is a modifier that is already part of the skill."
so is the 'effect' of hd for poison, breath weapon and such abilities dc. and you'll have a hard time persuading people here that higher level of master doesn't bring higher dc for these things.
('no sir, your snake's poison dc stays the same even at level 20, as long as it's con is not any higher then when you got it'..yeah good luck with that one)
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1 : something that inevitably follows an antecedent (such as a cause or agent) (me here, agent doesn't need to be active, hack an agent can also be a lack of something, like lack of sunlight or oxygen)
Same phrase:
1 : something that [binevitably follows an antecedent[/b] (such as a cause or agent) (me here, agent doesn't need to be active, hack an agent can also be a lack of something, like lack of sunlight or oxygen)
agent
/ˈeɪdʒ(ə)nt/
I1. a person who acts on behalf of another person or group.
"in the event of illness, a durable power of attorney enabled her nephew to act as her agent"2. a person or thing that takes an active role or produces a specified effect.
"these teachers view themselves as agents of social change"
Your interpretation can work if you use the "produces a specified effect" interpretation of agent and stretch it a bit. That is why I suggest you to check how Paizo has used it in the books.
AFAIK they have always used the "thing that takes an active role in producing an effect" interpretation.
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('no sir, your snake's poison dc stays the same even at level 20, as long as it's con is not any higher then when you got it'..yeah good luck with that one)
Poison (Ex or Su)
Source Bestiary 6 pg. 296, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary pg. 302, Bestiary 2 pg. 300, Bestiary 3 pg. 297, Bestiary 4 pg. 297, Bestiary 5 pg. 297
A creature with this ability can poison those it attacks. The effects of the poison, including its save, frequency, and cure, are included in the creature’s description. The saving throw to resist a poison is usually a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + 1/2 poisoning creature’s racial HD + that creature’s Constitution modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). Poisons can be removed through neutralize poison and similar effects.
We return to the starting point. You claim that the familiar gets racial HD. The rule says:
Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.
You are adding racial in that phrase, but it never says so.
me and everyone else that uses a familiar with an ability that goes off it's hd. (breath attack, poison and a lot of others, i think almost every ability of the improved Aether elemental familiar for example)
we just rule that the word 'HD' when written in general in the familiar rules include every kind of hd: class, race or bonus (as i posted in my first post). the same as when the word 'feats' is written in general include every kind of feats, combat, style, teamwork etc etc.
I could be wrong, but this is a variation of the discussion that went on with the Silvanshee Agathion and it's lay on hands ability? That was clarified that it did not increase with artificial HD enhancement from being a familiar (and then locked as the ability of a 2nd level paladin in a Beastiary errata).
That's because it is explicitly called out as being 'Always as a paladin of 2nd level". There is a clear cut limitation in the ability. If it said "As a paladin equal to its Hit Dice" it would be a different story. My copy of the Bestiary 2 is from 2012, Aug 4 (download date for the pdf), and that is clearly in the description.
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neat!
so now we have a quote of a dev (i assume he is one from his words) stating that normally it should scale with the master levels, but in that specific creature they are going to cap it.
meaning in any other non capped familiar the master's level, if higher, count as it's hd (even racial ones).
I guess it's time to date myself; consider the following Thread
In particular, see Mr. Reynolds posting Sept 23, 2011. (About 1/2 way down.)
Hmm, strange. I've been around since Paizo published PF1e and I have not once seen any published errata on that particular ability. I even checked the released errata to make sure and there is no indication that that particular entry was updated. I guess it as a stealth update to the 2nd printing of the Bestiary 2. I don't have my original PF1 books from release any longer to verify.
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Hmm, strange. I've been around since Paizo published PF1e and I have not once seen any published errata on that particular ability. I even checked the released errata to make sure and there is no indication that that particular entry was updated. I guess it as a stealth update to the 2nd printing of the Bestiary 2. I don't have my original PF1 books from release any longer to verify.I guess it's time to date myself; consider the following Thread
In particular, see Mr. Reynolds posting Sept 23, 2011. (About 1/2 way down.)
It's in the released errata:
Page 21—In the Agathion, Silvanshee stat block, in the Skills entry, change the Climb skill bonus from “+1” to “+7”. In the SQ entry, change “as a 2nd-level paladin” to “always as a 2nd-level paladin”. In the description, in the first paragraph, in the fourth sentence, change “by spellcasters who utilize the Improved Familiar feat and meet the proper prerequisites” to “by 7th-level good spellcasters with the Improved Familiar feat who meet the proper prerequisites”.
It's in the released errata:
Huh... Guess I'll have to double check more than just The FAQ and Errata page in the future. I didn't think to check the sales page for the book to find that info.
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It's in the released errata:Huh... Guess I'll have to double check more than just The FAQ and Errata page in the future. I didn't think to check the sales page for the book to find that info.
For Pathfinder 1, the FAQ pages were a different entity than the errata. The errata were compiled when a new printing was made and were disseminated via a downloadable document for each book. Although a FAQ entry would sometimes make its way into the errata, not all FAQs are errata and vice versa.
Pathfinder 2 doesn't keep a FAQ, preferring (so far) to issue errata to clear up confusion immediately rather than waiting for a new printing. And keeping all errata in one place (your link). I think I like the PF2 method better - as long as they are able to keep it up.