I've never actually played a monk. I look at them and wonder how they can get their AC high enough to not get dead after a couple fights. I like the idea of monks, but I guess, I just don't know how to make an effective monk.
So... How do you guys do it?
Monks need a fairly high point buy to be viable. Trying to do it on a 15pt buy is not going to work well.
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A Wand of Mage Armor handed to a friendly party member removes the worst AC woes. The Barkskin Ki Power can also help.
If you're interested, I can post my Monk mini-guide with all the essentials. Note that unless you want one of the few archetypes that drastically change play-style (Zen Archer, Far Strike, Sohei, Sensei, and Tetori), there's no reason to use the core Monk, as the unchained Monk is much stronger for ordinary melee builds. And if your GM doesn't allow unchained classes, you should work on changing their opinion on that. Because while cMonk has gotten playable over the years, it's still an outrageously badly made class, and one of the weakest in the game.
Monks need a fairly high point buy to be viable. Trying to do it on a 15pt buy is not going to work well.
For cMonk, probably, but unMonk has no such issues. It's not
If you're interested, I can post my Monk mini-guide with all the essentials.
Post it! I'm interested!
Before anything, you probably should decide on whether you want to use a weapon or not. UnMonk is proficient with every weapon with the monk special property, so there're plenty of choices. Upsides of using weapons compared to going unarmed are cheaper enchantment cost (although see handwraps below), the ability to use them two-handed for both 1.5xStr (that was changed from cMonk) and 3:1 Power Attack ration, the ability to have reach (only beneficial during early levels), and the ability to have different damage types. The downsides are that you can't use the bonus attack from spending ki, or style strikes, with weapons (unless you have the Ascetic Form feat, see below for more on that). That doesn't mean armed builds can't use them, though - they can use an unarmed strike (usually the bonus attack from ki pool) to make the style strike and attack with the weapon the other attacks, which is something especially worthwhile for Flying Kick.
Archetypes:
Unlike cMonk, UnMonk is a fully functional class without archetypes, but there are some that are worth looking at:
Invested Regent replaces the first bonus feat to grant you additional spell-like abilities in place of feats (bonus or regular); your pool won't be overly large but some of these SLAs are rather nice (most notably Air Walk at 10th level, which alone makes this archetype very potent). Don’t let the pool keying off charisma fool you, if you just use the pool for Air Walk and maybe some conditional stuff, even a 7 Cha would still be fine.
Windstep Master replaces the 4th level ki power with the ability to walk on air. Already pretty nice, especially when you don't plan on taking Empty Body early on, it gets to almost must-take levels if your GM allows you to make Flying Kicks while in the air (RAW is very unclear, but they are called "flying" kicks after all!).
Perfect Scolar replaces Still Mind and the 4th level ki power with a bonus to knowledges and a more-cute-than-relevant accuracy boost.
Soul Sheperd replaces Stunning Fist and Evasion with DR and resistances.
Scaled Fist is an often mentioned archetype that changes your key ability score to charisma. Can be nice for a race with charisma bonus and wisdom penalty, but is otherwise a downgrade. You need to invest in improving the will save, and Monk doesn’t have the skill ranks to make much use of charisma based skills.
Feats: Apart from the archetype, your most important choice is probably going to be which style chain/VMC you use.
The "normal" paths would be Ascetic Style, Dragon Style, Jabbing Style, Pummeling Style, VMC Barbarian, VMC Magus, or using none of the above. Apart from Dragon Style, they all also work with Weapon Finesse, although VMC Barbarian only if you take unchained Barbarian as a base. There is no single best play-style for unMonk throughout all levels, if you're interested in damage comparisons, check my unMonk DPR calculator for exact numbers throughout levels 1-16.
The easiest method is style-less, i.e. not using any style feat chain at all and instead grabbing assorted feats like Power Attack and Possessed Hand - it's not much weaker (at some early levels even stronger) than other styles and allows greater flexibility. Also has the advantage of not needing a swift action to enter a style, which can be relevant in surprise fights.
Ascetic Style (up to Ascetic Form) is something like the default style for armed - it's not exactly necessary, but it is much smoother (and more flavorful) than weapon based style-less, and it's also pretty much top dog for damage. You basically get all the goodies of both armed and unarmed (including ki pool's DR penetration ability, and even the scaling damage), for the cost of a few feats.
Dragon Style (up to Dragon Ferocity) is something like the default style for unarmed - low investment (only two feats) and comes online very early (3rd level).
Pummeling Style (up to Pummeling Charge) is a possibility if you want more maneuverability, especially on open battlefields. You'd use your early feats on singular feats like Power Attack, and the build in DR penetration is nice, but your style only really comes online at 9th level. It does, however, free up style strikes even if you have to move.
Jabbing Style (up to Jabbing Master) depends a bit on the enemies - the higher the AC, the weaker it is, while target switches aren't helpful either. Also needs four feats and only becomes good at 9th, but can do a lot of damage and has some added mobility. Note that against tougher enemies, you don't want to use Power Attack.
VMC Barbarian takes even more feats (every other feat, plus you probably want Extra Rage) and lowers your AC, but it comes online early (3rd level), and has some nice additional benefits (well, it's Rage), including a Rage Power at 11th level. Like style-less it has the advantage of not needing a swift action at the start of combat to get ready.
VMC Magus takes at least as many feats (you definitely want Extra Arcana, as the Magus Arcana you get at 7th level will be Ki Arcana), comes partially online at 3rd level, but becomes pretty crazy at 10th level, when you can basically make every attack against touch AC by (ab)using Accurate Strike and the Ki Leech ki power. Touch attacks sadly can't profit from Power Attack, and the swift action is already used and thus isn't available for the bonus ki attack, but the damage is still very high, and you could add Flamboyant Arcana for a defense boost via OP&R.
Jabbing Style and Pummeling Style don't actually require you to be in their stance to work, meaning you don't need a swift action to activate them and you can use them alongside other style feats. You wouldn't get to use the follow-up feats (those always require an active stance), both these two can be tacked onto basically everything.
Bonus Feats: The stand out ones are Dodge, Deflect Arrows, and Medusa's Wrath, plus depending on campaign, build, and allies, Mobility and Combat Expertise. Improved Critical is the only one to directly increase your damage, but it's really weak at that.
Style Strikes: Your first or second style strike will be Flying Kick, period (the only exception would be Pummeling Charge builds, and even than Flying Kick can be useful). It takes a while to be really good, especially when adventuring in open spaces, which is why selecting it at 9th level can be okay, but this is the main reason unMonk is so much better than cMonk.
Defensive Spin boosts AC, Elbow Smash boosts damage (it's usually the best style strike for that).
Foot Stomp prevents escape; including 5-feet-steps.
Ki Powers: There are too many ki powers to list all the good ones, and a lot of it depends on your build. Notable standouts:
Empty Body (4th) grants amazing versatility, especially outfight, to a class very much lacking just that. Rather ki hungry early on, but flight, invisibility, and intangibility is awesome.
Barkskin (4th) grants some very welcomed AC boost, and is all but mandatory when using an AoMF (which prevents you from using an Amulet of Natural Armor).
Ki Metabolism (4th) allows you to hold your breath for >10 hours, which can be very helpful for underwater exploration/fighting.
Placebo Effect (6th) can surpress most conditions from yourself or allies.
Restoration (8th) removes all ability damage or drain and even negative levels. Self-only, but you get to ignore the material component cost.
Freedom of Movement (8th) is a swift action to use, and it's a supernatural ability, meaning you can have it active exactly when you need it to.
Insightful Wisdom (8th) doesn't help yourself, but can easily save party members.
Ki Leech (10th) costs no ki to activate, meaning it can be sustained indefinitely, and should remove all ki problems.
Dust Form (12th) is amazing for defense, as it makes you immune against non-magical damage, only take half magical damage, and be affected only half the time by non-damage spells.
Diamond Soul (12th) is better than the cMonk's permanent version, as you can activate it after getting buffed by your party.
Action Before Thought (6th) starts weak, but becomes very interesting in combination with Ki Leech.
The Thought Shield line (I at 4th, II at 8th, III at 10th, IV at 12th, V at 14th) can do a lot to shore up the will save, although you might want to ask the GM about retraining ki powers.
Equipment: At early levels, you'll probably want to use one of the three monk reach weapons, Double-chained Kama, Kusarigama, and Kyoketsu Shoge. All are weird, but Kusarigama and Kyoketsu Shoge also have two different damage types. Since Flying Kick requires you to end adjacent to the enemy, you'll want to use a non-reach weapon later on, Sansetsukon or Seven-branched Sword have the highest base damage (Sansetsukon is slightly superior because 19-20/x2 is better than 20/x3). If you prefer, you can just want to start with one of the, dealing more damage early on for losing the usual benefits of reach (AoOs and higher chance of full attacking). It's possible to flurry with any melee weapon by using the Versatile Design weapon modification and Ascetic Form, but you need to spend a feat or two on proficiency, and mechanically, it's usually not worth it. For unarmed, there's two ways to "enchant" unarmed strikes, both with weaknesses. handwraps come at regular cost, but you won't be getting the bonus on some style strikes, while Amulet of Mighty Fists affect all unarmed strikes but cost twice as much (and also blocks your neck slot, so you'd really want the Barkskin ki power). Mathematically, using Handwraps is better for most levels even during turns in which you use flying kick, but you have to deal with different attack and damage rolls, and while flying kick is about the movement, Foot Stomp and Leg Sweep mainly care about hitting, making an AoMF better if you chose to use those.
Weapon Finesse based builds can go either unarmed, or use weapons, the best ones are Sanpkhang and Cestus. If not using Ascetic Style, the best weapon is Waveblade.
Something of a 'must have' item is a Wand of Mage Armor, handed to an arcane caster of your choice. You can be generous with the charges, as your caster buddy should have 1st level spell slots to spare by the time you've used them all. Unarmed builds should also buy a Scizore, which is a weapon that grants a +1 shield bonus to AC when worn (you don't need to care about proficiency since you never attack with it). Not an actual shield so it can't be enchanted, but it doesn't hamper your Monk abilities like a shield would.
If your GM lets you use an item from a PFS module, the Braid of a Hundred Masters (yes, this is a legit PF item, it's just not on AoN of d20pfsrd) increases the effective level of the fast movement, which basically means +10ft Flying Kick range.
Multiclassing: Multiclassing is, of course, possible. UnMonk does gain quite a lot from staying in class, though - bonus attack at 11th level, ki powers that can be very strong (like Ki Leech at 10th level), and style strikes/improved Flying Kick range. A dip into Bloodrager would be okay, but I wouldn't recommend lowering your accuracy by dipping into a non-full-BAB class.
Very cool ideas!
Here's a thought, how would you build a halfling monk along the lines of a super saiyan? When 3e first came out, the first thing I made was a halfling monk/ sorcerer. The DM let me use shocking grasp with a punch. I don;t remember if that was actually legal back then, but I did it. level 1 monk/ level 1 sorcerer with Mage Armor and Shocking Grasp. He was pretty cool, but never went anywhere with him.
How would you make something like that with Pathfinder?
I love seeing all your ideas.
Well, you could add energy damage top your unarmed strikes with the Elemental Fury ki power. There're some Qinggong powers that let you do ranged attacks (Scorching Ray (4th), Dragon's Breath (8th), Cold Ice Strike (14th)), but that's not really something you want to build your character around. For a character imitating DBZ's energy attacks, I think Kineticist would be the best fit. Kineticist also has a melee option called Kinetic Fist that lets you add energy damage to unarmed strikes, which might be what you're looking for. The Stylish Infusion talent with a dip into unMonk can even further expand it.
When 3e first came out, the first thing I made was a halfling monk/ sorcerer. The DM let me use shocking grasp with a punch.
Anyone can deliver touch spells with unarmed strikes, but it would take two rounds (one to cast the spell, and in the second you attack normally). A Magus can do it in one round and even get a bonus attack out of it, with the Esoteric or Iron-Ring Striker archetypes. There's also the Jistkan Artificer archetype, but it has a somewhat different flavor.
i'll add that the spin kick style strike allow one with medusa's wrath to use it as the free extra attack (spin kick is both made against and make the target a flat footed target). at level 15 when you can use 2 style strikes in a round both of the extra attacks from medusa's wrath can be used with it. (just incase you find it hard to get the target into flat footed situation)
some say it doesn't make him flat footed just use his flat footed ac, but the end of the ability say "the monk makes his attack against the foe’s flat-footed AC. Creatures with the uncanny dodge class feature or a similar effect cannot be caught flat-footed by this style strike" so it straight out say that he is flatfooted if not uncanny dodge.
notice i didn't say using this feat let you use after it the medusa's wrath extra attack, i said the extra attack IS using this style. medusa's wrath let you make up to 2 extra attack when you full attack with unarmed strike as long as the attacks are made against a flat footed target, spin kick make the attack into an attack against a flat footed target. until level 15 you can only use it once a round though.
of course if you can get the target flat footed in an other way, like shatter defenses. it's better to do so and get more attacks via elbow smash. (specifically true for jabbing style builds, which relay on extra attacks)
i'll add that the spin kick style strike allow one with medusa's wrath to use it as the free extra attack (spin kick is both made against and make the target a flat footed target). at level 15 when you can use 2 style strikes in a round both of the extra attacks from medusa's wrath can be used with it.
I never considered that. Probably bears checking in on with the GM to be safe, but it does sound kosher. I will include it in the future!
(ab)using
Ha ha!
I think it's worth pointing out to anyone not familiar with the monk that some of the ki powers in your list are only available when you select the "Qinggong Power" ki power.
Have you considered slapping that on a Google doc, expanding a few places, and "publishing" it as a guide? Or even keeping it as a mini-guide? The only uMonk guide on Zenith Games' site is five years old and enormous. There's no way I'm reading all of that. A focused discussion like yours could be useful.
Thanks for posting it!
reread the stuff listed here. 2 things i would like to mention.
a ring of ki mastery - can be very useful even when using ki leach ability to keep your ki lasting longer. especially if you spam the next thing im listing.
the ring both reduce using ki points by one (minimum 1) and can be used to siphon ki from the ring in case you really have to.
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now Derklord mention the following ability when he talked about ranged attack options (somewhat dismissingly as a useful option), but left somethings out, so i'd like to point them:
COLD ICE STRIKE (Qinggong 14th level power\can be taken by unchained monk).
now as a spell like ability per the rules it uses the spell casting time to use => 1 swift action !
and it can effect not only one target but anyone in a 30-ft. line.
so while full attacking you can use a swift action to , let's say gain one more attack per round, or to do 14-15d6 depend on your level (you get at level 14 and it max at 15) to a whole lot more enemies(ref half etc etc). it cost 3 ki (or 2 with the above mentioned ring) but i think it is totally worth it.
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Jabbing Style and Pummeling Style don't actually require you to be in their stance to work,
That is incorrect. A central rule for all style feats is that they only work when in the stance.
Speaking of styles, Snake Style is a nice one to boost your defenses at level 3, and can get you a lot of extra attacks at level 9 via Snake Fang.
It's funny, because I play a lot of wizard type characters, and I love giving the monk mage armor. Spending minimal resources to drastically increase the survivability of one of my meat shields. Maybe wizard-type characters are rare in most groups.
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Jabbing Style and Pummeling Style don't actually require you to be in their stance to work,That is incorrect. A central rule for all style feats is that they only work when in the stance.
No it's not. The rule you're thinking about only applies to follow-up feats. Please re-read the style feat rules. I've had this discussion multiple times, and I've heared and refuted every single argument multiple times. It works exactly as I've said.
You can actually see with the Snake Style you mentioned that what I said must eb true, as the author put "While using the Snake Style feat" in the middle of the feat - which would make absolutely no sense if it was mere reminder text. As it is, the second part of the feat only works while in the style, while the first part always works (and thus could be used alongside another style).
Speaking of styles, Snake Style is a nice one to boost your defenses at level 3, and can get you a lot of extra attacks at level 9 via Snake Fang.
The problem is that Snake Style blocks your swift actions, which makes it bad in practice. Snake Fang in itself is nice, but an extra attack for three feats isn't actually good on unMonk, and the second bonus attack once again blocks your next turn's bonus ki attack (and thus it's not actually a bonus attack but only saves ki - not a big deal when Ki Leech comes online a level later). The first two feats are very weak, and the three feats all prevent each other from being used. It's not character-ruiningly weak, but it's not something I can recommend.
somewhat dismissingly as a useful option
I only dismissed using them as the primary combat focus. I don't dislike Dragons' Breath against swarms or hordes of weak enemies, and I actually really like Cold Ice Strike (which I only didn't mention because I basically capped the ki power listing at 12th level).
The only uMonk guide on Zenith Games' site is five years old and enormous.
The numerous issues with that guide is actually what made me write down my thoughts on the topic in the first place.
I have considered making a proper guide out of it, but I have a hard time deciding what I want in it. What would you (or any other reader of this post!) want to see in a guide? I could see myself expanding the ki powers to include other good ones, but overall, I like keeping it short enough to post here.
Are sections on ability scores, races, and traits necessary? I expect people to be able to figure out themself that strength and wisdom are the main ability scores (barring WFinesse or Scaled Fist), and the bonuses to those are better than penalties. I also don't think that unless there're specific things that one might miss, people don't necessarily need to know which race or trait is the absolut mechanical best or whatever.
I have considered making a proper guide out of it, but I have a hard time deciding what I want in it. What would you (or any other reader of this post!) want to see in a guide? I could see myself expanding the ki powers to include other good ones, but overall, I like keeping it short enough to post here.
Are sections on ability scores, races, and traits necessary? I expect people to be able to figure out themself that strength and wisdom are the main ability scores (barring WFinesse or Scaled Fist), and the bonuses to those are better than penalties. I also don't think that unless there're specific things that one might miss, people don't necessarily need to know which race or trait is the absolut mechanical best or whatever.
I agree. Most guides that I see have sections for all of those things, but as I hinted at, they tend to be full-on reading sessions rather than a helpful reference for when I'm creating a new character. I like the guides I've seen that don't have, for example, a section on Race where they evaluate each and every race. Instead, they have one line along the lines of "look for races that boost [stat A] and avoid penalizing [stat B]." Maybe have another line if there are any race abilities that are especially beneficial to the class. (Also, I already know that CON is good for hit points. I know that humans get an extra feat, which is great. Those things are true for most any class, and I don't need to re-read those facts again.)
I don't need to be told that a power is useless... unless I'm in a sea-faring campaign! Then it's great! I get that. I just want to read what the author feels is powerful or really consistently useful, and also what pitfalls to avoid.
And I don't want to open up a new guide and see 40 pages of text with no navigation (or broken navigation) in the left pane. I can see where people feel that sample builds are useful, and they can take a lot of page count, so I cut a guide some slack if that's the case.
Unless a skill is tied to a class ability, a review of useful skills doesn't add much to a guide.
I think two sections of a guide that you can't do without are a discussion on abilities (such as ki powers for a monk) and archetypes. And even then, I don't need a review of each option. Just the standout good or bad ones.
I feel the same was about a feat section, but for different reasons. I still want to know about standout feats, but I also want to know if there are any feats that are pretty much required for the class to be effective, or if I can just focus on, say, crafting feats for my PC and still be effective with only my class abilities.
The guy who runs rpgbot.net writes good class guides, but he is very much focused on optimization instead of evaluation. Plus, he deliberately excludes most splat books. (He also will write something completely opposite of most other guides for a class, sometimes. Not good or bad; just worth noting.)
I realize that there are people who love long guides (shout out to UnArcaneElection, who is a machine), but I think that totally comprehensive class guides are written more of entertainment than for reference.
In closing, I'm too lazy to look up the exact quote about how you know a work is finished when there's nothing left to take away.
No it's not. The rule you're thinking about only applies to follow-up feats. Please re-read the style feat rules. I've had this discussion multiple times, and I've heared and refuted every single argument multiple times. It works exactly as I've said.Jabbing Style and Pummeling Style don't actually require you to be in their stance to work,That is incorrect. A central rule for all style feats is that they only work when in the stance.
Is the rule you're referring to where it says:
You can use a feat that has a style feat as a prerequisite only while in the stance of the associated style.
And therefore the conclusion is that since most (all?) of the first feats in a style's feat chain don't have another style feat as a prerequisite, then you don't have to enter the style to use the feat? Or is there something more concrete than that?
Is the rule you're referring to where it says:
You can use a feat that has a style feat as a prerequisite only while in the stance of the associated style.And therefore the conclusion is that since most (all?) of the first feats in a style's feat chain don't have another style feat as a prerequisite, then you don't have to enter the style to use the feat?
Yes. A feat can't have itself as a pre-req, obviously, and thus that rule cannot possibly refer to the original style feat. The only rule about using style feats is that you can't use them out of combat, and even though I'm pretty sure that's supposed to mean you can't enter a stance out of combat, it's irrelevant for feats like Jabbing Style and Pummeling Style, anyway.
In practise, it isn't actually a big dealt, as most style feats contain a variation of "while using this style", and everything after that phrase can't be used alongside another style. Also, even for style feats without such a phrase, the follow-up feats are usually much stronger than the style feat itself (with Pummeling Charge and Jabbing Master being perfect examples).
Regarding my guide: So what would you like to see that's missing? A short list of general feats? Maybe a slightly expanded list of Ki Powers?
Also, anything that you feel could be cut?
Regarding my guide: So what would you like to see that's missing? A short list of general feats? Maybe a slightly expanded list of Ki Powers?
Also, anything that you feel could be cut?
I've re-read the guide, here's my thoughts of what could be added or expanded:
I don't think there's much that should be taken out, but I found it interesting that you gave VMC options nearly as much prominence as the others. In my experience, VMC is a very optional rule that's not in play in many games.
I would like to point out a pair of items - Monk's Robes and Bracers of Armor. The robes increase the unarmed damage and the bonus to AC by 5 levels. The bracers give armor AC while being a wondrous item worn in the wrist slot. Both items are really good for getting AC up and I would consider them must haves.
Also, take a look at the Dimension Dervish feat line. There's a ki power that lets you teleport as if using the Dimension Door spell. And the feats allow you to still take any remaining actions after the teleporting. The final feat lets you teleport, attack, then teleport and attack again up to your max number of attacks and twice your speed.
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I don't need a review of each option. Just the standout good or bad ones.
This is important. It is far more likely that people read your guide from the perspective of "I want to improve my (e.g.) defense, what good feats/traits/abilities help with defense?" Or attack, or BFC, or whatnot. People don't read guides to find an alphabetical list of most-or-all feats in the game.
That goes for archetypes, too. Make a list like "if you want to do <X>, then good archetypes are A, B, and C"; instead of an alphabetical list of several dozen archetypes with no clear organization.