My party is looking at options to make a devil more cooperative, and side-stepping the alignment issue has become our best working theory on how to handle him. We still need to talk to him though, so if anyone knows the answer to this that would be awesome.
If awaken is a no-go, any other suggestions on how to get his intelligence higher and teach him language, after we turn him into a newt?
Also, maybe a longshot but are there any good aligned animals with 1 or less hit dice?
Pretty sure it would work in the sense that the newt would be intelligent, but it would be a completely new intelligence, altogether. Like it would no longer be the devil you were trying to work with... it would be an intelligent newt with no memories of ever being a devil. It would hold no power it once did as a devil, no knowledge or experience would transfer from the devil to the newt... the new newt wouldn't even have the ability to remember yesterday [as it did not exist, yet].
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Doesn't work, because Baleful Polymorph doesn't change the creature type, and Awaken only works on animals (and trees).
Pretty sure it would work in the sense that the newt would be intelligent, but it would be a completely new intelligence, altogether. Like it would no longer be the devil you were trying to work with... it would be an intelligent newt with no memories of ever being a devil. It would hold no power it once did as a devil, no knowledge or experience would transfer from the devil to the newt... the new newt wouldn't even have the ability to remember yesterday [as it did not exist, yet].
i think this is actually contradicted by the fact that baleful polymorph states: "It still retains its class and level (or HD), as well as all benefits deriving therefrom (such as base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points). It retains any class features (other than spellcasting) that aren’t extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities."
Doesn't work, because Baleful Polymorph doesn't change the creature type, and Awaken only works on animals (and trees).
the first sentence of the spell is literally "you change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD" Is there some part of the rules that i'm missing? If so I just want to see, so i know where i went wrong here. I've done some research since i originally posted this, and have seen a number of folks say that this is the case, but haven't been able to find the rule which makes it clear.
Also are there any other alternatives to boosting its int score?
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Pretty sure it would work in the sense that the newt would be intelligent, but it would be a completely new intelligence, altogether. Like it would no longer be the devil you were trying to work with... it would be an intelligent newt with no memories of ever being a devil. It would hold no power it once did as a devil, no knowledge or experience would transfer from the devil to the newt... the new newt wouldn't even have the ability to remember yesterday [as it did not exist, yet].i think this is actually contradicted by the fact that baleful polymorph states: "It still retains its class and level (or HD), as well as all benefits deriving therefrom (such as base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points). It retains any class features (other than spellcasting) that aren’t extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities."
Doesn't work, because Baleful Polymorph doesn't change the creature type, and Awaken only works on animals (and trees).the first sentence of the spell is literally "you change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD" Is there some part of the rules that i'm missing? If so I just want to see, so i know where i went wrong here.
Also are there any other alternatives to boosting its int score?
The spell text starts with:
As beast shape III, except that you change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD.
It refers to Beast shape for how it works.
This spell functions as beast shape II, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Diminutive or Huge creature of the animal type.
Plus:
Polymorph: A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature.
You take the shape, never the type. You need a spell that actually says that it changes a creature type to change the type of a creature.
Note that a devil (like all other outsiders) hasn't a dual nature, its soul and body form one unit (from the description of the outsider type).
Changing its body so much that it changes its type will change that, with effects that should be decided by the GM.
Another piece of the spell says:
if this second save fails, the creature loses its extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities, loses its ability to cast spells (if it had the ability), and [b]gains the alignment, special abilities, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of its new form in place of its own.
So it loses its starting intelligence and gets an intelligence of 1 or 2, with a net loss of skills (even the dumbest Devil has at least 6 intelligence) and modifiers to the skills. At the very minimum, it loses 2 skill points/level, and probably loses way more.
If the spell changes the type to animal (it doesn't) the outsider turned animal loses another 6 skill points/HD.
The ex-devil will have only a vague trace of its old skills and knowledge, even if brought back to sentience.
The idea is innovative but contradicts too many of the rules and assumptions of the game to work.
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All of what you are saying basically makes sense, and is well reasoned. I guess what's really sticking in my craw is that the spell uses the words "As beast shape III, except that you change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD." instead of "assume the form like beast shape I through III."
If it said "as per beast shape III except you force a creature to assume the form of a small or smaller creature of the animal type" it wouldn't stand out to me as so strange. It feels bizarre to me that you can't cast something like speak with animals on a baleful polymorphed creature, but i suppose it makes sense for balance reasons. Someone would probably try to baleful polymorph + awaken themselves and play the game as a really smart monkey or something.
Either way, it ultimately serves our interests if he is a a little bit dumbed down as we don't really need to question him on facts so much as we just need him to be able to learn new information. If we just wanted info, there's mind reading spells and whatnot.
But, I suppose if awaken wont work, we'll just have to find a headband of intellect or something. Doesn't solve the language issue (especially if we can't use speak with animals on him) but there might be some item-based work-arounds there.
I did find the Tauhoti animal statblock potentially intriguing (and hillarious, to turn a devil into a "round squirrel like creature.") With the +4 bonus to intelligence checks for recalling information/facts. That seems to mitigate the INT penalty completely, though their score is still low for ranks, language and probably just rational thinking skills.
Part of the issue is that the language is largely copied from 3.5, where the polymorph rules were different. In Pathfinder, polymorph is basically just a disguise that gives you thematic abilities to go with that disguise.
I have used Baleful Polymorph exactly one time as a GM, and zero as a player.
The one time I used it, the PC failed both saves... I turned them into a Raven... roll a new character. I have not touched it since. Didn't like it.
When I used it as a GM, I took that "except that you change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD" line to mean that they change into an actual animal... the type.
Vivisectionist's Torturous Transformation seemed to support this... bunching Baleful Polymorph, Anthromorphic Animal, and Awaken together within the same ability/class feature. Turn them into a little animal, make the little animal bipedal, make the little bipedal animal intelligent...
i've re-read and settled on some evidence that feels to me like the most appropriate argument for why your creature type wouldn't change with this spell.
"a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action."
It would stand to reason that you can't change your type with this spell, as you'd also change your subtype, thereby rendering the line above useless.
Heh, I was just about to point out the same thing!
It feels bizarre to me that you can't cast something like speak with animals on a baleful polymorphed creature, but i suppose it makes sense for balance reasons. Someone would probably try to baleful polymorph + awaken themselves and play the game as a really smart monkey or something.
It's not balancing for the spell itself, but rather for polymorph spells in general. Creatures types come with all sorts of inherent stuff, which would require a ton of "you don't get this" language, and in addition, it would allow misusing spells like Animal Growth (in 3.5) or Atavism for Wild Shape Druids.
Baleful Polymorph is one of those weird chain-of-reference effects that 3.x was apparently super fond of, and it might actually have been more appropriate to actually change the creature type (as the forced alignment is just ugh), but ultimately polymorph spells were all based on Alter Self (which contained the polymorph rules, rather than them being in the magic section like in PF), which has this line: "Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form."
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I have used Baleful Polymorph exactly one time as a GM, and zero as a player.
The one time I used it, the PC failed both saves... I turned them into a Raven... roll a new character. I have not touched it since. Didn't like it.
When I used it as a GM, I took that "except that you change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD" line to mean that they change into an actual animal... the type.
Vivisectionist's Torturous Transformation seemed to support this... bunching Baleful Polymorph, Anthromorphic Animal, and Awaken together within the same ability/class feature. Turn them into a little animal, make the little animal bipedal, make the little bipedal animal intelligent...
In a world far away and back in the past from Golarion, a 1st AD&D edition barbarian was turned into a fly. For years he was the unquestionable ruler of every pile of refuses with his 180 hp.
Dispel magic and Heal or Restoration will restore his original form and mind, the problem can be finding him if it isn't done immediately.