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It's a general preference, not a universal requirement.
So how I hand this is... I don't. A player playing a lizardfolk picks out whatever armor they want to wear that their character can afford, and I don't question it.
And if a player comes to me saying they want to match that little bit of lore but they don't see any stone, ivory, glass, or bone armors, I say to them "grab whichever armor you like the stats of, pay normal price for it, and we'll just leave the game mechanics as-is but you can describe it as being made out of that stuff." because it genuinely doesn't matter.
While I like this answer in general it is WAY too good for a druid. So I'd allow it only for non druids.
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I got stuck on their description
Lizardfolk move through the societies of other humanoids with the steely reserve of born predators. They have a well-deserved reputation as outstanding rangers and unsentimental fighters.Though lizardfolk have adapted to many different environments, many of them still prefer to remain near bodies of water, using their ability to hold their breath to their advantage. As a result, lizardfolk usually prefer equipment that is not easily damaged by moisture, eschewing leather and metal for gear made of stone, ivory, glass, and bone.especially on the equipment part.
I admit I am the pratical one who goes with efficiency rather than lore, so maybe this would not affect me that much, but how is a character who willingfully wants to play a Lizardfolk meant to get Stone, Ivory, Glass or Bone armor?
Lizardfolk in the bestiary have the required armor value for enemies of that level, and they don't wear no armor.
Are there some specific armor a lizardfolk could use that I missed?
If it were me, I'd consider them ( Stone, Ivory, Glass or Bone armor ) medium armor apart from the stone one, maybe, meant to allow from +1/+2 dex, but having to choose among the existant armors I am not sure what to pick as base ( and then reskin them for the Lizardfolk ).
How would you face all of this?
I am especially interested in what armor would you reskin ( I wouldn't modify any of the existing becaose of balance, and just treat them as a reskinned one. So which is which ), and ofc any Item I could have missed.
ps: I know they could go unarmored with bracers or explorer's clothes, but that wouldn't be the right approach ( apart from a dex based character, or a monk/spellcaster with no armor proficiency ).
**EDIT** Website ate my original reply.
The easiest way to do so would be to take PF1 examples and convert them.
Stone would be the simplest one to do, since Stoneplate = Full Plate, but with added bulk and an Uncommon trait (since it's common among Dwarves, but not among other ancestries). You could make it provide a -15 penalty as well, making it a real obvious choice for Dwarves especially, but that's a little underbalanced, since the Uncommon trait and added bulk do more than enough to compensate.
Ivory and Bone are more tricky, since they are relatively similar, and there is no Lamellar equivalent, but since that is most commonly described in PF1 as being a Medium armor, the closest equivalent would be Hide armor, and since Hide can be used with any types of creatures, simply stating you have it crafted with the skins of underwater creatures can be handwaived quite easily.
Glass is the most difficult, simply because there isn't much of an actual armor, much less material, to be made, unless it is of a Special Material. However, it mostly otherwise replicates Metal armors. The only one I know of that technically qualifies is a special material from an AP, so unless you're running that AP, chances are you won't come across items of this type whatsoever.
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I agree it does matter for Druids.
Moving to breastplate from hide allows a shift in stats which favors Strength which Wild Shape Druids do have a use for. Also it opens up Sentinel (etc.) for Heavy Armor use, and arguably Sturdy Shields and other metal shields if those all can be "not metal" as desired.
I'm not saying these are major changes (so maybe not "WAY too good"), but it'd certainly impact my Druid PC choices, heck even my Warpriest choices. I guess by the metric of altering one's choices, that is too good.
And there's the major impact on MCD Druids with heavy armor classes re: Anathema.
PF2 has resiliency to such tweaking, but opening this up to Druids to bypass an Anathema freely does shift the mechanical curve.
That said, I do hope stone plate becomes a thing, probably with some drawback like extra Bulk or Uncommon or such.
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There were probably expectations that non-metal medium and heavy armors would be added soon when that was written. Remember the Iruxi were one of the first four ancestries added to the game.
It's just we've had exactly 1 new armor added to the game since the CRB was published. Hopefully we'll get some new kinds of armor in the Quest for the Frozen Flame backmatter, since that's the sort of adventure where you would not expect a lot of armor that requires considerable forging infrastructure to be around, since the Broken Tusk people are nomadic so their forges have to be portable.
The Wild Shape Druid uses aforementioned Strength as a prerequisite for some Wild Shape feats, not while wildshaped. Though that Strength could also be useful for a non-Wild Shaped Druid Gish, I didn't mention that since that build has a tough hill to climb anyway. So yeah, access to non-metal variants of armors would lessen that stat cost for those feats (not that I'd necessarily recommend a lower Dex given how poor Druid's Reflex saves are!).
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I think that the reason why Lizardfolk avoid metal and leather armor is mostly due to their environment.
The archetypal lizardfolk described in the bestiary lives in swamplands. They are strong swimmers and often use this skill as part of hunting and warfare.
The problem with this is that constant exposure to moisture makes metal rust and leather rot. The materials mentioned in the description all lack this problem.
Armor is a large investment, and it is the first thing that gets skimped on when conditions make it troublesome. This is also one of the reasons why armor was not that popular on sailing vessels. You generally aim to not get hit often enough that battle damage does more to you than several weeks/months of exposure to the elements.
Now, this is probably less of an issue for lizardfolk adventurers- successful adventurers can extravagantly spend on equipment, and they are usually traveling with landbound companions in dryer conditions.
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While I like this answer in general it is WAY too good for a druid. So I'd allow it only for non druids.It's really not, though, since all armor within a category is effectively equal in mechanical terms.
"I'm gonna take this breasplate and says it's made from bones like from an elephant or something." Big deal, same AC you could have hit with hide.
Uh, no. Breastplate has significantly different stats than Hide armour.
And full plate is a thing I'd have loved to get on my druid
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I think that the reason why Lizardfolk avoid metal and leather armor is mostly due to their environment.
The archetypal lizardfolk described in the bestiary lives in swamplands. They are strong swimmers and often use this skill as part of hunting and warfare.
The problem with this is that constant exposure to moisture makes metal rust and leather rot. The materials mentioned in the description all lack this problem.
Armor is a large investment, and it is the first thing that gets skimped on when conditions make it troublesome. This is also one of the reasons why armor was not that popular on sailing vessels. You generally aim to not get hit often enough that battle damage does more to you than several weeks/months of exposure to the elements.
Now, this is probably less of an issue for lizardfolk adventurers- successful adventurers can extravagantly spend on equipment, and they are usually traveling with landbound companions in dryer conditions.
Yeah, aside from there being no limits on PC lizardfolk, the preference is more practical than cultural anyway. PCs have a different context re: practicality, so all those reasons dissipate.
X's prefer Y because of Z. Z does not apply to some X who then would then base their choice on whatever other factors they'd like.| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's sort of surprising that the Mwangi book, as great as it is and even though it points out how heavy metal armor is less useful in the swamp, desert, and jungle, they don't offer any alternatives that the peoples of the Mwangi who spend a lot of time fighting demons have come up with to maximize protection.
Yeah, aside from there being no limits on PC lizardfolk, the preference is more practical than cultural anyway. PCs have a different context re: practicality, so all those reasons dissipate.
X's prefer Y because of Z. Z does not apply to some X who then would then base their choice on whatever other factors they'd like.
Well, it is different practical concerns. An adventurer? Their stock and trade is killing and trying not to get killed. If you aren't at risk of getting hit, then you aren't out there making money. So you want to protect against that, and maintenance on your equipment is essential since it is a tool of your trade.
People in a lizardfolk village? Their job is to get enough food for the winter, gather enough materials to do repairs on their house, and maybe every month or so you have to deal with like, an angry boar or a poacher or something.
Armor might help with that occasional problem, but it might distract from everything else you do with your day since you have to polish and oil your armor for an extra hour or it will rust. But while you are doing that, dinner is getting cold (or warm? Or it is crawling away? I'm not an expert on lizardfolk cuisine)
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The simplest solution is just to let the PC describe their armour as they prefer and mechanically leave it unchanged. Maybe they know ways to magically treat obsidian to make it as strong as steel, so the player gets cool black stone armour to describe, you just treat it the exact same as a breastplate for all intents.
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The issue is... there are disadvantages to having metal armor. Shocking Grasp, druid stuff, and so forth. They're edge, and niche, but they're disadvantages... which means that if you say that nonmental armor is just exactly as good in every way except that it's not made of metal, it's strictly better. Folks who want optimization will grab a set of lizardfolk bone-and-stone because why wouldn't they? It's a straight upgrade. Better to not have that sort of perverse incentive for PCs to act in ways that don't really fit the world-as-described.
So, sadly, it's going to take a house rule. I might say something like "it'll run you an extra point of bulk". It's enough of a cost that most folks won't go for it if they don't have RP reasons, but little enough that if they do go for it it's not crippling, and it's reasonably in line with the reasons why people used metal IRL. It'll do until we get something official.
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And if a player comes to me saying they want to match that little bit of lore but they don't see any stone, ivory, glass, or bone armors, I say to them "grab whichever armor you like the stats of, pay normal price for it, and we'll just leave the game mechanics as-is but you can describe it as being made out of that stuff." because it genuinely doesn't matter.It kind of does, though. Heat metal, for example. Curse of Lost Time could also not work on stone or glass depending on GM.
And yes, druids, of course. Their restriction definitely was not designed to simply ignore it. And yes, saying 'This plate armor is not metal just because' is ignoring it.
Nah, "the magic strengthening it results in it working the same as metal, magic, who knew!" if you want to convince yourself there's a reason. It's literally that simple if you want it to be as the GM, just tell your player upfront. "It looks how you're wanting. Mechanically we treat it as the normal armour for everything."
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Ah yes, pointing out the spells that specify interaction with metal like those come up in 100% of campaigns targeted at player characters and thus it's a note-worthy alteration to the rules for a character to have armor that is bone instead of metal... totally got me there, not at all a non-difference in all but a few weirdly-specific and GM-chosen situations.
As for making non-metalized options uncommon, that's also either a non-effect because the player says "Can I have?" and you say "Yes." or is a GM pretending they aren't saying "No." when they are doing exactly that.
Same with making them more expensive; it's either not more expensive enough to matter so it's a waste of you bothering to alter the price, or you're using the price to tell the player "I don't actually want you to have this but I'm pretending to say it's okay if you do" because it is expensive enough to influence the player's decision making process.
But seriously though; demonstrate one thing that is actually broken by a druid having the same AC but with slightly different stats, because I do not believe there is anything.
I think strange armor types might come up, though. It is not uncommon for some tables to heavily rely on heat metal against humanoid opponents since they often have armor and equipment. At the very least, it can be a distraction while the opponents try to save their friend from being cooked well done.
Think of it this way- if the players often used this spell, and the GM suddenly said "these enemies are wearing bone armor", then that could be seen as an attempt to nerf the spell.
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Also Shocking Grasp.
I would make non-metal equivalent of metal armors and shields at least Uncommon. And very likely more expensive too.
Just to be clear, this was my thought when I considered what such an unusual armor would imply.
1- It's not common, at least in the Inner Sea area, so Uncommon or Rare rating according to its actual rarity in the game setting. If it's common where the game takes place, that's just fine.
2- If it's not common, how does the character maintain it ? How do they do the minor repairs that it needs ? Either they need to be able to repair it on their own (with Crafting) or they need to buy a new one, or at least replace some parts. If it comes from a faraway place, it is expensive just by virtue of the costs involved in getting it to the character.
Nothing impossible to get for a character, but increased verisimilitude IMO, as well as a balance I deem acceptable for the benefits it provides.
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Note : in a context where most combattants use metal armor, enemies using attacks that work better against those is neither adversarial GMing nor metagaming. Just IC common sense.
Ie, what the PCs do too.
And I guess that in a context where glass armors would be common, they would develop attacks that work better against those too.
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Think of it this way- if the players often used this spell, and the GM suddenly said "these enemies are wearing bone armor", then that could be seen as an attempt to nerf the spell.Correct, context matters.
If a GM is saying "this is bone armor now" to avoid their player's strategy it's just like the GM loading enemies up with effects that do something special vs. metal armor when the party happens to mostly wear metal - the context is the GM is deliberately screwing with things.
If the GM wants to bone the bone armor wearer, they can just have the PC attacked by something that works better on non-metal armors, like a gelatinous cube or similar ooze, that degrades organic materials like bone, but not metal, or do something similar to someone wearing a breastplate of stone. They might be immune to rust monster attacks, but there are beasties that attack or bypass stone, like the xorn, so the power remains in the GM's hands.
Yes, metal armor might be weak to shocking grasp or heat metal, but a stone breastplate is weak to rock to mud or earth to stone.