Hey all,
I would like to build a character that uses a Crossbow as their main weapon, preferably focusing on single shot rounds, mobility and/or siege/sniping. I mostly GM nowadays so I'm a little unversed in player options.
Is there any other options apart from Ranger or Gunslinger?
Stuff that I'd pick up if Ranger or Gunslinger:
Weapon: Heavy Crossbow
Running reload, crossbow ace, penetrating shot
Have you managed to play a crossbow character? I feel since I asked the question about crossbows just as Pathfinder 2 came out we have a lot more options.
In Pathfinder 1 there were some funky options for this out there, such as inquisitors, investigators, magus. Any such in Pathfinder 2?
Edit:
This will likely be an NPC, probably a villain. When I next have a chance to play in a game I'd like to try this out though.
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I'd NOT take heavy crossbow. Its just not worth it.
Ranger does this very well. My xbow character took an alchemist dedication and used an alchemical crossbow. Getting free d6 extra damage for the first 3 rounds of a fight is very nice and the alchemist dedication gives other stuff too
You could take other classes, and then select a MCD feat for those abilities, but Ranger/Gunslinger are the absolute best simply because you don't have to wait as long to come online (8th level compared to 4th or so) for your schtick.
If you were running a Free Archetype game, Gunslinger with Ranger MCD is going to give you the best of both worlds, since you'll have the Gunslinger proficiencies with the essential Ranger feats and abilities, like Gravity Weapon and Crossbow Ace.
This is a game with Free Archetype indeed, though it has to be one that isnt one of a base class (i.e. no rogue free archetype on top of fighter, but mantis assassin works).
So the heavy crossbow is not worth it because of the reload length of 2 rounds?
Edit: 2 actions, not 2 rounds indeed.
This is a game with Free Archetype indeed, though it has to be one that isnt one of a base class (i.e. no rogue free archetype on top of fighter, but mantis assassin works).
So the heavy crossbow is not worth it because of the reload length of 2 rounds?
Well ... 2 actions. Not necessarily 2 rounds - though it may take a round's worth of available actions to reload. So it may end up being effectively 2 rounds.
Running reload would still let you move and do one of the reload actions at an action cost of 1 for both.
I GMd for a precision Ranger using crossbows. If you give them good layouts with walls, obstacles, dificult terrain and such they look really good. He had a Heavy crossbow to start combat, then drop it and Quick Draw a regular crossbow.
We started past 4 though, I haven't seen them in action without running reload. Probably they are a lot worse.
This is a game with Free Archetype indeed, though it has to be one that isnt one of a base class (i.e. no rogue free archetype on top of fighter, but mantis assassin works).
So the heavy crossbow is not worth it because of the reload length of 2 rounds?
Archer Archetype works, and gets Running Reload at 6th. That said, Ranger's still likely the best because of its damage bump from Precision, though w/ Archer you could use Ranger's other feats for other useful tricks. Which ones depends heavily on party composition, though I like several of those that buff your allies.
Heavy crossbow is not worth it, correct, at least not if planning to reload in combat. It's taking an extra action every round for a 1-step die increase. That's only 1-4 damage gained from that action, and it's not optional. Many better actions available.
I'd go with a monk.
Just hold the crossbow in one of your hands, then go with
-Stride
- Flurry of Blows
-Stride backNobody will suspect you are not a real bowman until your first turn begins.
To be honest, that is a better hit-and-run PC than a crossbow wielder AND if Dex-based, you could use that crossbow well enough too. I forgot to add that I've run a guy trying out crossbows, and he was disappointed. Bows are simply superior, at the top of the curve w/ little investment while crossbows need investment to catch up and a specific playstyle of moving while loading in order to reach its max potential.
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This is a game with Free Archetype indeed, though it has to be one that isnt one of a base class (i.e. no rogue free archetype on top of fighter, but mantis assassin works).
So the heavy crossbow is not worth it because of the reload length of 2 rounds?
Edit: 2 actions, not 2 rounds indeed.
If multiclass dedications aren't permitted, then Archer dedication might be worthwhile instead, since you can still pick up Crossbow Terror, which is a big neutral-based Crossbow Ace, giving the necessary increase in damage to keep parity with other martials.
As someone who is currently playing a Crossbow Ranger in the lower levels (Only just hit 2nd level from our previous session) and using only a basic Crossbow, I still hit plenty hard enough with D10 dice from a still moderately safe distance. The additional die size does not warrant the action cost, in my personal experience, simply because you would end up spending rounds doing nothing but moving and reloading in the early levels, and other rounds where you can't reasonably strike enemies due to lack of actions. 1 action to reload is plenty punishing enough on the action economy, and even though you can take feats and abilities to reduce the impact, it's still there.
I can definitely say, though, that a Crossbow Ranger is the most powerful single-hit ranged damage in the game. At 1st level, a Human Ranger with Crossbow Ace and Gravity Weapon can deal D10+D8+4 against a hunted enemy. Granted, a Shortbow Ranger equivalent can deal D8+D6+2 (with an extra +1 or +2 with Composite) on a hunted enemy, they would have to hit twice to outdamage the Crossbow's single attack, which is unlikely against higher level/difficult enemies without sacrificing significant damage (such as the additional D8 from the Hunt Prey benefit). Conversely, Shortbow Ranger is awesome with action economy for strikes, meaning you can make more flexible turns with them compared to a Crossbow Ranger, so it has that going for it, which is nice in its own way.
If you are looking for something unusual, you might consider Eldritch Archer. People tend to forget that its feats work with crossbows. Although it could be useful in some situations, Eldritch Shot is too action-intensive to use most rounds without a repeating crossbow. But the archetype has plenty of other options that would give you time to reload and move if you have Running Reload.
Enchanting Arrow adds considerable mental damage to a bolt while leaving an action for Running Reload.
Magic Arrow lets you create a number of types of ammunition with no activation or single action activation. Those would also leave time for Running Reload. I have a list of all options here. I particularly like Viper Arrow since it not only adds poison damage to your shot, it leaves your target dealing with an angry viper. :) Beacon Shot, Antler Arrow, Vine Arrow, and Sleep Arrow also are fun combat options.
At higher levels, Seeker Arrow and Phase Arrow would enhance the combat style you are considering.
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The big issue with other classes is they have to use archetypes to get the appropriate feats and that takes longer. Both Crossbow terror and running reload are 6th level feats. Less of an issue with free archetype, and less still if you start at a higher level..
Even then, Ranger precision damage is real juicy. And they get the longest attack range of any class which is dope. 240 foot range without penalties is great when you need it.
You can offset the need for crossbow terror a bit with the martial heavy repeating crossbow. Gives you a d20. I think fights will usually be over by the time you fired 5 shots. And you can get even more range out of it. But terror with a simple basic crossbow is still the best IMO.
Halflings are my favorite ancestry for crossbows. They get sick stealth feats and a perfect ability array. At higher levels they can vanish during every reload.
The other things is you should pick your shot. Don't try and 1.5 shots a round of your first shot connects. Instead use actions to set up the next shot. If you need flatfooted, use hide. If you already have it, use Hunted Shot. Move so your enemy doesn't get soft cover bonuses. Maximize your chances to hit and crit every time.
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Thank you very much for great advice. I am glad to see that there is some support for crossbows, albeit locked in a handful of class archetypes (ranger, slinger and monk to some degree, and eldritch builds).
Honorable mention to dealing with a live snake after getting shot, would def ruin my day :P
Also, seems like the heavy crossbow is in disfavour, with a reload of 2 it is too much of a tax, although with running reload it can be aleviated somewhat.
Repeating crossbows and such are a different play style, I think those are in a better position with cartridges, and if it is a home game I am sure a GM can change capacity there somewhat, in my case.
Yeah, to be honest I can't really justify heavy crossbows as more than an opening shot. But if you can afford the bulk and the striking runes to carry more than one bow... Then why not?
Outside of multibow shenanigans, a heavy crossbow is a decent pick on a caster. You're probably going to use your two actions for spells, and your third action for stride, Demoralize, or Recall Knowledge... So getting just one shot off isn't an unreasonable expectation.