Are low level spells useful at high level?

[OmniMage]

I'm wondering if low level spells are of any use to a high level spell casters. They don't seem to be as powerful as high level spells, so I wonder if they have any use at all. So does anyone find low level spells useful at high level?

[MrCharisma]

Depends on the spell.

Burning Hands? No thanks.

Heroism? Yes please.

[pad300]

Low level spell slots are generally not your primary combat spells, but they are extremely useful at higher levels as buffs and problem solvers...

Buffs like Heroism, Magic Vestment, Barkskin, Tears To Wine, expeditious retreat, Heightened Awareness, See Invisible are all very useful to critical at higher levels of play, and they are all less than 3ed level.

As far as problem solvers - Glitterdust & faerie fire remain tools of choice against invisible foes. Alchemical Tinkering can be a fixit spell for a large number of problems. Rope Trick is a very good camping spell, only made obsolete when Magnificent Mansion becomes practical (ie. 14+). There are lots of others...

[zza ni]

some cantrips never get old
read and detect magic?
Prestidigitation?
also with a feat and the right race even disrupt undead can still have a nice use at higher level.

grease is multi-use spell that even at higher levels can still prove useful for helping a friend to 'get out of pri'- i mean grapple.

landing protection from X on the dominated fighter is also great to have (he keep failing his will even at high levels you know).

sure most damage spells are not up to it once you at the high end game, but by then most spells you would cast would probably be save or suck anyway. unless you really like to watch them burn slowly...

[TxSam88]

Haste is a 3rd level spell and is one of the most useful in the game. So to answer your question.. YES

[Mark Hoover 330]

Damage dealers from levels 1-3 can still have their utility, if your PC chains them together with other things. I'm not saying you have to optimize for them; being able to hand your familiar a spell to hold onto, giving your high-Dex familiar a Scorching Ray and encountering something that, however rare, isn't immune or resistant to Fire damage; suddenly you've got 8-12 extra D6 worth of damage coming out.

Damage dealers from low level that also avoid saves and SR can be handy, in a pinch. Magic Missile, although SR IS a factor, can be a staple of damage dealing spells until the end of the game; it deals Force damage, hits Incorporeal creatures, has a very respectable range and so long as you've got line of sight, you hit, period.

Finally, as others have said, a lot of low level spells can be devoted to utility spells and buffs. Of course, if I've said it once I've said it a thousand times; low level buffs and utility spells are usually not so dependent on your level that they couldn't be cheap scrolls or even wands, especially if someone in the party can craft such items themselves.

Ultimately, low-level buffs and utility spells coming from high level casters essentially save Move actions; they are a convenience. You don't have to fumble with a Scroll of Haste or a Wand of Ironskin, spend a Move action pulling these out and then a Standard applying them; you've got them at your fingertips already.

Oh, and one last thing: a lot of Cleric spells are defensive in nature but can be absolute lifesavers at high level. The aforementioned Ironskin for example; with a CL 12 a character with access to this spell adds +6 to their Natural Armor for 12 minutes, but can dismiss the spell (which doesn't use an action) at any point to turn a Crit or a Sneak Attack into a normal attack.

Have you all seen some of the U-Rogue SA effects? An enemy u-rogue built for SA at CR 12 could deal some damage, but then also give you -4 on your AC AND to all your attack rolls for a round. If you're a melee caster and you're suddenly that debuffed, it could be freaking CURTAINS for you if the u-rogue foe has some handy minions to swarm you. Being able to shrug that off is worth a level 2 spell slot.

[MrCharisma]

TxSam88 wrote:

Haste is a 3rd level spell and is one of the most useful in the game. So to answer your question.. YES

Haste really should have been a 4th level spell. Seriously you know you'd still cast it every combat.

[Mark Hoover 330]

MrCharisma wrote:

TxSam88 wrote:

Haste is a 3rd level spell and is one of the most useful in the game. So to answer your question.. YES

Haste really should have been a 4th level spell. Seriously you know you'd still cast it every combat.

Y'know what the funny thing is? My megadungeon game, arguably my most dangerous home game with savvy, strategic players, rarely sees use of the Haste spell. The PC Wizard HAS it and put it on a bunch of scrolls, but he doesn't cast it much at all.

For the life of me I cannot figure out why. The party is the Wizard plus 2 dedicated melee martials and a u-rogue who is slowly turning into a switch hitter, though her archetype (Scout) is mainly based around melee Sneak Attacks.

The Wizard PC spends all of his time trying to figure out how to use Wall of Fire, Fireball, or the occasional Black Tentacles spells to maximum effect. Meanwhile the martial types get beat up over and over on the front line. The one time the Wizard DID use Haste, the U-Monk hit four times in one round and nearly solo'd a giant in a round. Like, wouldn't you want that on all the time?

[Derklord]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

The one time the Wizard DID use Haste, the U-Monk hit four times in one round and nearly solo'd a giant in a round. Like, wouldn't you want that on all the time?

Maybe the player doesn't? Haste may increase the party damage more than a Fireball would, but it's not the caster rolling the damage. Not everyone enjoys being the proverbial power behind the throne.
Haste can also make fights too similar - if every combat is just "attack, attack, attack", it can get boring, and different spells spice things up.

I'd also like to add that Haste is strongest when you have martials who can reliably full attack each turn, i.e. archers, pouncers, etc., as most of the benefit is lost when a melee only gets a single attack. Although the movement speed increase can make getting into position for flanking or attacking the opponent's backfield much more easy, especially for small PCs or those slowed down by armor.

MrCharisma wrote:

TxSam88 wrote:

Haste is a 3rd level spell and is one of the most useful in the game. So to answer your question.. YES

Haste really should have been a 4th level spell.

3rd? 4th? Haste as a 2nd level spell is where the fun's at!

[Mark Hoover 330]

Got a corpse? Need a single foe Grappled? Have any level 1 spell slots open? Then you need Grasping Corpse!

The CMB for the Grapple attack of the corpse affected is your CL plus your Int, Wis or Cha bonus, whichever's higher. There's no save and no SR, just a single Grapple attack. Now, unfortunately that isn't going to be dealing any damage but it slows down and debuffs a single foe until that foe breaks free, period.

Consider that the dreaded Black Tentacles uses your CL as the BAB and adds a static +5 to that roll for multiple grapple checks through an area; if you have a corpse handy, you get your CL + whatever your highest mental stat's bonus is. If you can get that to +6 or more, you've got a single attack that's more accurate than the multiple attacks of the Black Tentacles.

… of course, then there's Black Tentacles. Mild damage, difficult terrain and Grapple checks against anything in the affected area? Sounds good to me for a level 3 spell slot!

[OmniMage]

So I'm getting a lot of use buffs and utility spells, with the occasional magic missile spell. Also use spells that require an attack roll instead of a save.

With that in mind, would low level spell be useful/worth while if their save DC and damage kept up with high level spells?

[Mightypion]

There are several amazing level 1 level spells.

--Moment of greatness. On a High level Abyssal Bloodragers, +8 STR essentially. HULK SMASH.

--Protection from evil, really useful

--Expeditious retreat (+30 Foot speed) for a level 1 slot

--Aspect of the falcon

--Enlarge person

--Shield

--cheetah sprint (swift action spell!)

--Longarm

[Dragonchess Player]

One other reason that low-level spells are useful in high-level play: Quicken Spell. Granted the low-level spell takes up a spell slot four levels higher (or requires an expensive rod), but being able to pump out two spells in the first round of combat (on top of any long- and middle-duration buffs) is a significant advantage.

[MrCharisma]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Y'know what the funny thing is? My megadungeon game, arguably my most dangerous home game with savvy, strategic players, rarely sees use of the Haste spell. The PC Wizard HAS it and put it on a bunch of scrolls, but he doesn't cast it much at all.

For the life of me I cannot figure out why. The party is the Wizard plus 2 dedicated melee martials and a u-rogue who is slowly turning into a switch hitter, though her archetype (Scout) is mainly based around melee Sneak Attacks.

Yeah it's fine. Haste is a good spell, a Great spell even, but it's not the Only 3rd level spell that's useful. Haste is primarily about improving Action Economy, but if you can entirely prevent an enemy from taking actions by using a Wall spell or by killing a swarm outright then that may have an even greater effect on the Action Economy of the combat.

My 8th level Occultist took Slow instead of Haste because only 1 of our party would be able to make the most of Haste, while Slow gives the action economy benefit to our casters as well as our martials. Against a single tough enemy I use PERNICIOUS PRANKSTERS because the action economy benefits add up fairly quickly (and it's a fun, flavourful spell).

Derklord wrote:

3rd? 4th? Haste as a 2nd level spell is where the fun's at!

I'm aware. I'm genuineliy curious about some of those decisions. The one that gets me is Greater Invisibility as a 3rd level spell, meaning it can now be made into a potion and used by non-casters without a UMD check.

[MrCharisma]

OmniMage wrote:

So I'm getting a lot of use buffs and utility spells, with the occasional magic missile spell. Also use spells that require an attack roll instead of a save.

With that in mind, would low level spell be useful/worth while if their save DC and damage kept up with high level spells?

Often yes. Save DCs are based partly on the spell level, so lower level spells by default have lower saves. The HEIGHTEN SPELL metamagic feat will help sith the DCs, although obviously it'll change the spell slot used so you still need other spells to fill those lower level slots.

As for damage, one common trick you see on the boards is for a Magus to use Intensified Shocking Grasp to keep the damage relevant (and use a background trait to keep it as a 1st level spell). Shocking Grasp caps out at 5d6 (~17.5) damage, which is not really enough to be worth a standard action against a CR:13 enemy. If you can increase it to 10d6 (~35) damage with a 30% chance to crit for 20d6 (~70) damage, and do that while also full-attacking it obviously makes that spell a more attractive prospect (a 10th level Magus with a Keen 18-20 weapon and Intensified Shocking Grasp will deal ~45 damage on average with that spell, which is ~2.5 times the usual damage, and the chances of missing the spell entirely and wasting a round dops to ~1%).

So yes, if you can keep the damage, or the save DC relevant then they're still useful, but low level spells are usually designed so that their damage/saves intentionally do NOT keep pace. You have to put in some effort to keep them relevant. Buff spells don't have to keep pace as much, because even a +1 is worthwhile if you can cast it before combat starts.

[Mightypion]

Ear piercing scream can be an option mid game (its level 1 for skalds and bards) because it is ranged, is save or suck and targets fort dcs, which are something that caster enemies can fail.

Bladed dash can be an amazing level 2 mobility option.

Bards/Skalds also get inspire gallantry. Immidiate action to add 2d4 to a failed attack or skill check. This can swing encounters if you make your beatstick hit with something.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Low level spells can be useful at high level, but the ones that end up being more useful tend to be utility spells instead of combat spells.. A good strategy for spells is to use your higher level spells for combat and the lower level spells for problem solving. This is more effective if you are a prepared caster and can don’t have limits on spells known. But even spontaneous casters can still pick up utility spells at higher levels.

Ant Haul lasts 2 hours per level so at 8th level or higher it will effetely last all day. Charm person may not work on the boss, but it can still be used to deal his servants to gain their trust. Disguise self can allow you to move about freely to scout out the enemy. Enlarge Person will boost up the barbarian at any level.

Invisibility gives a huge bonus to stealth and can be cast on others. Detect thoughts can allow you to read the thoughts of your enemies minions to get information they would not otherwise tell you. See invisibility I always useful even when True Seeing is available. It is not only lower level it last 10 times as long.

Even in combat low level spells can still be useful. Not all encounters will be against level appropriate creatures. When you encounter the boss’s minions using low level spells allows you to save your powerful spells for something it is needed for. You can also use them for cleanup. A well placed magic missile can finish off the boss when your tanks did not quite take him out.

Low level spells require a bit more thought to make them relevant, but if you put the effort into them they can still be valuable.

[Kurald Galain]

OmniMage wrote:

With that in mind, would low level spell be useful/worth while if their save DC and damage kept up with high level spells?

As this thread points out, they are worthwhile even when their save DC and damage don't keep up with high level spells.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Low level damage spells can be made relevant with some work at higher level. Depending on the route you want to go, metamagic on spells with saves is one of those ways.

Another is to ignore the saves altogether and target Touch ACs. Scorching Ray for example caps out at 3 rays for 12d6 damage. The only problem is that it's Fire damage which, by level 11 most things have immunity or resistance to.

If you trust your ranged attacks targeting normal AC, take a look at Stone Discus. It also caps at 12d6 at level 11, by which point you're tossing 3 B or S ranged attacks that count as Cold Iron, Magic and Silver. If you tacked on Arcane Strike you could be dropping 12d6 +9 damage if all 3 hit on a single creature, an average of 51 damage.

Considering the expectation at level 11 is that you're contributing to ending a combat if you successfully deliver 36.25 damage, you're good to go just using this single level 2 spell. The problem is the attack rolls.

Finally there's Touch spells. If your character isn't built around being in melee, use Spectral Hand or deliver through a Familiar. For any of the damaging level 1 or 2 Touch attack spells, you'll need Intensify Spell or other metamagics to keep them relevant, so plan accordingly, but they're usually easy to hit with and a couple ignore SR, so as long as the foe isn't immune to the energy type, that's a handy bit of damage from low level spells.