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Theorycrafting a ridiculous Summoner build for the upcoming Quest for Frozen Flame mini-AP (Takes place in the land of the Mammoth Lords). I'm dead set on doing a Beast Eidolon, but I'm unsure if I should go for the Brutal Beast or Fleet Beast. is there a concensus on this? From where I'm sitting it looks like the only difference is trading off 2 damage for 1 AC (as one of your options for primary attack is finesse, one has 18 strength and one had 14 strength but 18 dex)
If you are wondering the plan is to stand around enemies with a longspear and provide flanking for my Eidolon or friends without directly being in combat (that's the plan, fully aware it may not work out.) Also, plan is to go into champion dedication at level 2 for that sweet, sweet heavy armor proficiency.
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I'm rolling a summoner in a game right now. I went dragon rather than beast, but I chose the strength-based option, myself. True you are slightly easier to hit prior to level 5, but that's not a massive concern.
I like using my dragon to either frenzy or use athletics to soften up targets for other melee people in our group so we can double or triple team a threat while I hang out farther away, flinging out cantrips and the occasional spell as necessary.
I think going with the strength beast will serve you here, too. You'll end up with more accurate attacks across the board, since Agile attacks can just as easily work off of strength, and if you wanted to you could also turn your eidolon into a wide-range intimidator with its ability to howl, and shore up its lackluster charisma with Skilled Partner to snag Intimidating Prowess, and while you are at it you can also grab feats like Titan Wrestler to eventually affect any size of enemy, assuming you make your eidolon bigger, which feels fitting for a Mammoth Lords AP.
Seems good. Though I should point out that one of the primary attacks has finesse, so both beasts have the option of having the same attack bonus either way. Hmmm. Level 5 is half the AP as it only goes to ten or 11, but still, I take your point. I also like the idea of Skilled Partner. Not sure if being a giant intimidate monster is what I want to go for for my build idea, but it seems mechanically effective.
Thanks for the advice.
I made a dragon summoner. I noticed the Arcane list doesn't have a lot of great buffing spells. What spells on the arcane list are good for boosting your eidolon's rolls? Anyone have a good play with the arcane list and the dragon eidolon?
I made a dragon summoner. I noticed the Arcane list doesn't have a lot of great buffing spells. What spells on the arcane list are good for boosting your eidolon's rolls? Anyone have a good play with the arcane list and the dragon eidolon?
I think when you go dragon you're much more of a damage dealer than anything else.
It's really hard to beat boost eidolon as far as buffs go, and you get that one for free.
Haste works, stoneskin too, mirror image on yourself ? Drop a darkness on an eidolon with darkvksion.
Enlarge is also a solid buff. But I think the summoner action economy with arcane lends itself well to exploding everything: cast a damage spell+two attacks from eidolong is very strong.
I had made a semi-martial summoner with a beast eidolon for Paizo's summoner playtest, Cirieo Thessadin. He was a replacement for a one-legged ranger NPC in my ongoing Ironfang Invasion campaign, so I built him to resemble a spellcasting ranger with an animal companion. One of my players ran the character.
One module later, the player characters sent a message to Cirieo and his fellow Chernasardo Rangers asking for aid in defending the city of Longshadow. Cirieo's player and I converted him from playtest rules to Secrets of Magic rules and leveled him up to 7th level. I finally have an excuse to show how he changed:
CG, Small, Halfling, Humanoid
Perception +12(expert), keen eyes
Languages Common, Halfling, Sylvan
Skills Acrobatics +12, Athletics +10, Intimidation +15(expert), Medicine +10, Nature +10, Plains Lore +9, Stealth +14(expert), Survival +10, Untrained Improvization +7+modifier
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 18
Items +1 studded leather, +1 striking halfling sling staff with 30 bullets, +1 shortsword, dagger, belt, belt pouch, ammunition belt pouch, 3 sheaths, backpack, bedroll, coffee pot, cooking pot, 1 week rations, healer's tools, crutch, 50 ft. rope, 25 sp.
Forager Subsist feeds five https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=786
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AC 25; Fort +12, Ref +12, Will +12
HP 83
Hillock Halfling Heal 5 extra hp overnight and if snacking during Treat Wounds.
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Speed 15 feet with crutch, 5 feet without
Melee +1 shortsword +13 (agile, finesse, versatile S) Damage 1d6+1 piercing //Critical Specialization Sword: The target is made off-balance by your attack, becoming flat-footed until the start of your next turn.
Ranged +1 striking halfling sling staff +13 (halfling, propulsive, 2 hands, reload 1, range increment 80 ft.) Damage 2d10 bludgeoning //Critical Specialization Sling: The target must succeed at a Fortitude save against DC 23 or be stunned 1.
Manifest Eidolon [three-actions]
Primal Spontaneous Spells DC 23, attack +13;
4th (2 slots) elemental gift [SV] https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=904
petal storm [SV] https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=967
3rd (2 slots) fireball [SV] https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=119
1st (0 slots) heal {S or SV or MSV] https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=148
[Note: I had misread the summoner rules and shorted Cirieo out of his fifth spell.]
Cantrips (4th)
dancing lights [SV] https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=58
guidance [V] https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=142
produce flame [SV] https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=236
protect companion [V] https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=975
ray of frost [SV] https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=245
Summoner Link Spells (4th) 1 Focus Point, DC 23;
evolution surge [SV] https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1047
Cantrips boost eidolon [V] https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1045
Fluffy Goat Creature 7
CG, Medium, Beast, Eidolon
Perception +13(expert), darkvision and scent
Languages Common, Halfling, Sylvan
Skills Acrobatics +12, Athletics +13, Intimidation +12(expert), Medicine +9, Nature +11, Plains Lore +9, Stealth +14(expert), Survival +11.
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 12
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AC 25 (+2 brutal beast, +1 from Cirieo's armor rune); Fort +14, Ref +12, Will +13
HP Shared with Cirieo
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Speed 35 feet
Melee +1 striking curved horns +16 (shove) Damage 2d8+4 bludgeoning (with Cirieo's slingstaff runes)
Melee +1 striking hoof +16 (agile, finesse) 2d4+4 bludgeoning (with Cirieo's slingstaff runes)
Act Together [one, two, or three actions]
Share Senses [one-action]
Primal Spontaneous Cantrips (4th) DC 23, attack +13;
Healing Plaster [somatic] https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=925
Prestidigitation [somatic, verbal] https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=229
Scatter Scree [somatic, verbal] https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=990
Beast's Charge [two-actions] Eidolon
Your eidolon rushes forward, using their momentum to power their attack. Your eidolon Strides twice in a straight line and then Strikes, gaining a +1 circumstance bonus to the attack roll as long as they moved at least 20 feet.
Primal Roar [two-actions] Auditory, Eidolon
Your eidolon unleashes a primal roar or other such terrifying noise that fits your eidolon's form. Your eidolon attempts Intimidation checks to Demoralize each enemy that can hear the roar; these Demoralize attempts don't take any penalty for not sharing a language.
Build Choices
Ancestry Hillock Halfling https://2e.aonprd.com/Heritages.aspx?ID=22
Ancestry Feats
1st Halfling Weapon Familiarity https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=55
5th Halfling Weapon Tricks https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=61
Background Scout https://2e.aonprd.com/Backgrounds.aspx?ID=32
Class Feats
1st Expanded Senses https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2889
2nd Alacritous Action https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2894
4th Steed Form https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2899
6th Magical Understudy https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2896
General Feats
3rd Armor Proficiency https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=755
7th Untrained Improvisation https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=861
Skill feats
Background Forager https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=786
2nd Intimidating Glare https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=796
4th Quiet Allies https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=831
6th Battle Medicine https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=760
Skills Survival and Plains Lore from Scout background, Intimidation and Nature from choice of Beast Eidolon, Acrobatics, Athletics, and Stealth from starting 3 trained skills., and Medicine trained via 3rd-level skill increase. Expertise in Stealth and Intimidation from 5th- and 7th-level skill increases.
I cheated a little on the Magical Understudy, which gives Fluffy the ability to cast two cantrips. I gave it Prestidigation as a bonus cantrip, to explain how it does some manipulations with hooves instead of hands. It still cannot use most objects. Fluffy copies Cirieo's training in Medicine but cannot use healer's tools. Fortunately, a new cantrip called Healing Plaster lets it do Treat Wounds without healer's tools: "You purify some dirt or mud into a pliable, claylike plaster that can aid in clotting and healing." Formally, Healing Plaster would require Fluffy to scuff up some dirt for a plaster, but I am going to say that it licks the wounds with its big tongue instead, coating them with magic saliva.
End of Spoiler
I went with the brutal beast for Fluffy Goat, Cirieo's eidolon. Fluffy's primary attack is curved horns with the shove trait. And Fluffy did butt a climbing enemy off the walls of Longshadow with the Shove ability. Because Shove is an Athletics action and Athletics uses Strength, brutal beast fit Fluffy's curved horn' butt better than fleet beast.
Cirieo himself went for a high-Dexterity build. He was based on a halfling ranger, so his Dexterity is better than his Strength. He took the Armor Proficiency general feat. With his high Dexterity, light armor was all he needed. The champion in our party is also a high-Dexterity build and she wears light armor, too, despite her heavy armor proficiency.
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Agile wouldn't only get +1 AC for early levels, but a bonus to their Reflex save too, a weakness for Summoners.
That said, Strong is better as you do want that extra damage. That +2 seems small (and eventually will be), but we're talking about 1d6+2 (plus Deadly) vs. 1d8+4, so about 1/3 more damage. The d8 scales better w/ Handwraps and as noted earlier, the Strength ties into maneuvers, which as a martial you should have some capability with.
I wouldn't recommend Champion because of the Strength you'll use for little else other than armor. Even in heavy armor, I wouldn't recommend melee. You'll either be slow (lacking 16+ Strength) or vulnerable (because you did invest in 16+ Strength rather than Con & Wis). In either case, the front row doesn't suit you. And w/ the AP's theme I can imagine quite a lot of outside combat where you're too slow to help!
Boost Eidelon helps more, and from safety, and your allies should be providing flank; that's not your job. Plus w/ Cantrips, Demoralize, etc., you can contribute in far better ways that they might not be able to.
That is unless there's a lot more to your interest in Champion, even if it's only RPing, but better if it involves picking up several more feats to get Lay on Hands or the Champion's Reaction (though this will dig into your Eidelon's capability). I prefer getting the Eidelon's abilities instead, especially Eidelon's Wrath, which in such an AP you might be able to tune to the endgame threat(s).
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So my character is an older human . . . who lives up north. He's technically the guy in charge of buying and selling things that the tribe needs to survive but his real passion is crafting toys for the little ones. He worships (and at second level becomes a champion for) Grandmother Crow, and enjoys teaching the little ones.
His Eidolon is a Reindeer . . . that flies (well, glides at first level) named Rudolph. I hope you see where this is going.
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Agile wouldn't only get +1 AC for early levels, but a bonus to their Reflex save too, a weakness for Summoners.
That said, Strong is better as you do want that extra damage. That +2 seems small (and eventually will be), but we're talking about 1d6+2 (plus Deadly) vs. 1d8+4, so about 1/3 more damage. The d8 scales better w/ Handwraps and as noted earlier, the Strength ties into maneuvers, which as a martial you should have some capability with.
I wouldn't recommend Champion because of the Strength you'll use for little else other than armor. Even in heavy armor, I wouldn't recommend melee. You'll either be slow (lacking 16+ Strength) or vulnerable (because you did invest in 16+ Strength rather than Con & Wis). In either case, the front row doesn't suit you. And w/ the AP's theme I can imagine quite a lot of outside combat where you're too slow to help!
Boost Eidelon helps more, and from safety, and your allies should be providing flank; that's not your job. Plus w/ Cantrips, Demoralize, etc., you can contribute in far better ways that they might not be able to.That is unless there's a lot more to your interest in Champion, even if it's only RPing, but better if it involves picking up several more feats to get Lay on Hands or the Champion's Reaction (though this will dig into your Eidelon's capability). I prefer getting the Eidelon's abilities instead, especially Eidelon's Wrath, which in such an AP you might be able to tune to the endgame threat(s).
Thanks. I know my build isn't optimal. I'm looking to play something a little different even if it isn't perfectly optimal. I'm aiming for 'solvent.' Plus, as my friend is fond of saying 'bonuses to damage don't mean a thing if you can't hit. So doing boost eidolon and then flanking to give him a bonus to hit AND damage is . . . . better?
Thanks. I know my build isn't optimal. I'm looking to play something a little different even if it isn't perfectly optimal. I'm aiming for 'solvent.' Plus, as my friend is fond of saying 'bonuses to damage don't mean a thing if you can't hit. So doing boost eidolon and then flanking to give him a bonus to hit AND damage is . . . . better?Agile wouldn't only get +1 AC for early levels, but a bonus to their Reflex save too, a weakness for Summoners.
That said, Strong is better as you do want that extra damage. That +2 seems small (and eventually will be), but we're talking about 1d6+2 (plus Deadly) vs. 1d8+4, so about 1/3 more damage. The d8 scales better w/ Handwraps and as noted earlier, the Strength ties into maneuvers, which as a martial you should have some capability with.
I wouldn't recommend Champion because of the Strength you'll use for little else other than armor. Even in heavy armor, I wouldn't recommend melee. You'll either be slow (lacking 16+ Strength) or vulnerable (because you did invest in 16+ Strength rather than Con & Wis). In either case, the front row doesn't suit you. And w/ the AP's theme I can imagine quite a lot of outside combat where you're too slow to help!
Boost Eidelon helps more, and from safety, and your allies should be providing flank; that's not your job. Plus w/ Cantrips, Demoralize, etc., you can contribute in far better ways that they might not be able to.That is unless there's a lot more to your interest in Champion, even if it's only RPing, but better if it involves picking up several more feats to get Lay on Hands or the Champion's Reaction (though this will dig into your Eidelon's capability). I prefer getting the Eidelon's abilities instead, especially Eidelon's Wrath, which in such an AP you might be able to tune to the endgame threat(s).
Yes, there should be flanking. What I was saying is it shouldn't be coming from your old man. And if he's moving around at 15' speed (and likely often in inhospitable terrain), it's unlikely he'll be that good at positioning himself anyway! (This assumes there are martial allies interested in flanking.)
And in reference to damage vs. hitting, Agile & Strong have the same chance of hitting, flanking, etc. so the biggest variable is in trading that early AC/Reflex advantage for a damage/Athletics advantage. Not that this makes for a huge difference, but IMO it's notable. Of course, you might want it spitting fire via a ranged attack, and then it'd need that Dex to hit (and I suspect at least a few cold creatures being susceptible.)
I fail to see the "little different" aspect given how many Charisma casters (& Cloistered Clerics) tank up w/ Champion. But that regards me and my circles, not you and yours. What's funny is that in PF1 I played an old man who tanked up in plate armor too heavy for him. I held some of my gear because I'd have to drop it first thing in combat. And my familiar sometimes had to pick up things because I couldn't. Good times.
I made a dragon summoner. I noticed the Arcane list doesn't have a lot of great buffing spells. What spells on the arcane list are good for boosting your eidolon's rolls? Anyone have a good play with the arcane list and the dragon eidolon?I think when you go dragon you're much more of a damage dealer than anything else.
It's really hard to beat boost eidolon as far as buffs go, and you get that one for free.
Haste works, stoneskin too, mirror image on yourself ? Drop a darkness on an eidolon with darkvksion.
Enlarge is also a solid buff. But I think the summoner action economy with arcane lends itself well to exploding everything: cast a damage spell+two attacks from eidolong is very strong.
I get 4 total slots. Spending on a mirror image seems a waste. I could build for a nova attack, but seems less bang for the buck for your spell power. Arcane list does not seem great for supporting an eidolon.
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Yes, there should be flanking. What I was saying is it shouldn't be coming from your old man. And if he's moving around at 15' speed (and likely...Thanks. I know my build isn't optimal. I'm looking to play something a little different even if it isn't perfectly optimal. I'm aiming for 'solvent.' Plus, as my friend is fond of saying 'bonuses to damage don't mean a thing if you can't hit. So doing boost eidolon and then flanking to give him a bonus to hit AND damage is . . . . better?Agile wouldn't only get +1 AC for early levels, but a bonus to their Reflex save too, a weakness for Summoners.
That said, Strong is better as you do want that extra damage. That +2 seems small (and eventually will be), but we're talking about 1d6+2 (plus Deadly) vs. 1d8+4, so about 1/3 more damage. The d8 scales better w/ Handwraps and as noted earlier, the Strength ties into maneuvers, which as a martial you should have some capability with.
I wouldn't recommend Champion because of the Strength you'll use for little else other than armor. Even in heavy armor, I wouldn't recommend melee. You'll either be slow (lacking 16+ Strength) or vulnerable (because you did invest in 16+ Strength rather than Con & Wis). In either case, the front row doesn't suit you. And w/ the AP's theme I can imagine quite a lot of outside combat where you're too slow to help!
Boost Eidelon helps more, and from safety, and your allies should be providing flank; that's not your job. Plus w/ Cantrips, Demoralize, etc., you can contribute in far better ways that they might not be able to.That is unless there's a lot more to your interest in Champion, even if it's only RPing, but better if it involves picking up several more feats to get Lay on Hands or the Champion's Reaction (though this will dig into your Eidelon's capability). I prefer getting the Eidelon's abilities instead, especially Eidelon's Wrath, which in such an AP you might be able to tune to the endgame threat(s).
I plan to have 16 strength and up it to 18 at 5. I know he'll be a bit 2 behind to hits at level five compared to, say, an equally geared champion or something but I'm interested in playing a different version of a summoner.
...Yes, there should be flanking. What I was saying is it shouldn't be coming from your old man. And if he's moving aroundThanks. I know my build isn't optimal. I'm looking to play something a little different even if it isn't perfectly optimal. I'm aiming for 'solvent.' Plus, as my friend is fond of saying 'bonuses to damage don't mean a thing if you can't hit. So doing boost eidolon and then flanking to give him a bonus to hit AND damage is . . . . better?Agile wouldn't only get +1 AC for early levels, but a bonus to their Reflex save too, a weakness for Summoners.
That said, Strong is better as you do want that extra damage. That +2 seems small (and eventually will be), but we're talking about 1d6+2 (plus Deadly) vs. 1d8+4, so about 1/3 more damage. The d8 scales better w/ Handwraps and as noted earlier, the Strength ties into maneuvers, which as a martial you should have some capability with.
I wouldn't recommend Champion because of the Strength you'll use for little else other than armor. Even in heavy armor, I wouldn't recommend melee. You'll either be slow (lacking 16+ Strength) or vulnerable (because you did invest in 16+ Strength rather than Con & Wis). In either case, the front row doesn't suit you. And w/ the AP's theme I can imagine quite a lot of outside combat where you're too slow to help!
Boost Eidelon helps more, and from safety, and your allies should be providing flank; that's not your job. Plus w/ Cantrips, Demoralize, etc., you can contribute in far better ways that they might not be able to.That is unless there's a lot more to your interest in Champion, even if it's only RPing, but better if it involves picking up several more feats to get Lay on Hands or the Champion's Reaction (though this will dig into your Eidelon's capability). I prefer getting the Eidelon's abilities instead, especially Eidelon's Wrath, which in such an AP you might be able to tune to the endgame threat(s).
Reminds me of a witch build I did in 1e wherr I used the "smell children" hex in the most wholesome way I could find... To find children and leave gifts near their fireplace...
I get 4 total slots. Spending on a mirror image seems a waste. I could build for a nova attack, but seems less bang for the buck for your spell power. Arcane list does not seem great for supporting an eidolon.I made a dragon summoner. I noticed the Arcane list doesn't have a lot of great buffing spells. What spells on the arcane list are good for boosting your eidolon's rolls? Anyone have a good play with the arcane list and the dragon eidolon?I think when you go dragon you're much more of a damage dealer than anything else.
It's really hard to beat boost eidolon as far as buffs go, and you get that one for free.
Haste works, stoneskin too, mirror image on yourself ? Drop a darkness on an eidolon with darkvksion.
Enlarge is also a solid buff. But I think the summoner action economy with arcane lends itself well to exploding everything: cast a damage spell+two attacks from eidolong is very strong.
Arcane has a lot of sustain spells, I know you don't like it because you like options such as healing and buffing, but if I were you I'd steer into the skid and go full offense/debuff with those few spell slots you have and snag electric arc/scatter scree on top for awesome damage.
The spell slot problem for buffing is going to be pervasive across all spell lists.
And like mentioned previously, the summoner cantrips are pretty much all the buffs you need.
So my character is an older human . . . who lives up north. He's technically the guy in charge of buying and selling things that the tribe needs to survive but his real passion is crafting toys for the little ones. He worships (and at second level becomes a champion for) Grandmother Crow, and enjoys teaching the little ones.
His Eidolon is a Reindeer . . . that flies (well, glides at first level) named Rudolph. I hope you see where this is going.
I've only been able to think of melee summoners because I keep circling back to a literal angel summoner as the concept. Champion is a must. I respect your dedication (que rimshot).
I hadn't known you'd planned on attacking w/ the Summoner himself. I'd thought you were trying to build a brick to go flank. A second attacker will be more interesting & dangerous, yet also dubious due to shared MAP. You're effectively trading your Eidelon's 2nd attack for yours. That's a poor deal except when using Tandem Strike when I'd say you break about even (which in turn seems like a poor deal because it's costing a feat at a level w/ several game-changing feats).
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As for the spells, buffing w/ spell slots is a poor path IMO. Those should be for emergencies, w/ an AoE or Heal (the latter if you have a mediocre Cha). There are other options, but buffing in PF2 seems best w/ one's spare slots, not primary ones, and Summoners only have those few primary ones.
I get 4 total slots. Spending on a mirror image seems a waste. I could build for a nova attack, but seems less bang for the buck for your spell power. Arcane list does not seem great for supporting an eidolon.I made a dragon summoner. I noticed the Arcane list doesn't have a lot of great buffing spells. What spells on the arcane list are good for boosting your eidolon's rolls? Anyone have a good play with the arcane list and the dragon eidolon?I think when you go dragon you're much more of a damage dealer than anything else.
It's really hard to beat boost eidolon as far as buffs go, and you get that one for free.
Haste works, stoneskin too, mirror image on yourself ? Drop a darkness on an eidolon with darkvksion.
Enlarge is also a solid buff. But I think the summoner action economy with arcane lends itself well to exploding everything: cast a damage spell+two attacks from eidolong is very strong.
Arcane has a lot of sustain spells, I know you don't like it because you like options such as healing and buffing, but if I were you I'd steer into the skid and go full offense/debuff with those few spell slots you have and snag electric arc/scatter scree on top for awesome damage.
The spell slot problem for buffing is going to be pervasive across all spell lists.
And like mentioned previously, the summoner cantrips are pretty much all the buffs you need.
They do have decent debuffs. Even the breath weapon is pretty weak. 10d6 and 20d6 at lvl 19 every 1d4 rounds or 1 minute is pretty weak. There are focus spells you can blast off more often.
@perpdepog: wouldn't evolution surge invalidate fly for your eidolon?
@deriven: por que no los dos ?