Authoritative Spell (Metamagic) and spells with no saving throw

[Vandalier]

Hello all!

Would love some clarification on this.

The Authoritative spell metamagic states the following:

'You can alter any spell that targets a single creature to become an authoritative spell. When you cast an authoritative spell, choose one of the following activities to prohibit: move closer to you, move away from you, make a melee weapon attack, make a ranged weapon attack, cast an offensive spell, or cast a non-offensive spell.

A creature that is affected by the spell and fails its saving throw against that spell (if the spell allows a saving throw to resist) cannot perform any action of the selected type on its next turn. An authoritative spell gains the lawful descriptor, and the additional effect is a mind-affecting compulsion effect.'

My magus used a shocking grasp with a lesser rod of this thematically fun metamagic to prevent a big scary creature from moving away from me to chase our summoner down. Our DM wanted clarification as the group had a mini debate on whether it has to be used with a spell that has a saving throw attached or if it can be used with a spell with no save and thus, would automatically work (assuming the creature can be subjected to a mind-affecting compulsion effect.

Any official statement would be perfect but also a community vibe would be appreciated :)

Many thanks all!

[AwesomenessDog]

That wording can easily be read both ways: "(if the spell allows a saving throw to resist)". It could mean if there is a save, then failure means they can't take the specific action, but if there is no save, nothing happens. Or it could also mean that you only get a chance to save if there already is a save from the command as part of the spell.

I am however more in favor of the former, as the normal wording for this is that a spell that doesn't have a save already would then get a save for that specific rider effect.

[Trokarr]

“ 'You can alter ANY spell that targets a single creature to become an authoritative spell. ” this opening sentence strongly suggests that since shocking grasp is a spell that targets a single creature that it should be useable with authoritative spell. It seems to me that since shocking grasp doesn’t allow for a save that the target doesn’t get a save against the compulsion effect either. I’m no expert on spellcasters so this is basically my opinion on how this works based on the wording of the spell. Your GM is of course the final arbiter of whether or not this is how it should work at his table.

[Belafon]

Yes, it affects any spell. I really don't know why this feat didn't also get the "If the spell does not allow a save, the target can make a Will save to negate the effect" language like Dazing Spell.

In a home game I would add that language. The feat is outright banned in PFS.

[Vandalier]

Really interesting take on it. I've shown your responses to my DM and suggested that I'd even be happy to have the creatures make saving throws if he prefers.

I do believe that it's as Trokarr stated with it being specified that *any* spell that targets a single creature.

Either way, there's no animosity in our group and our DM rolled with it as it was a bit of a reveal for the party. Rule of Cool to keep the dice rolling and all that!

[Trokarr]

I’m not sure if there are any single target spells that auto-hit and don’t allow for a save but if there are this feat would be outright broken.

[Belafon]

Trokarr wrote:

I’m not sure if there are any single target spells that auto-hit and don’t allow for a save but if there are this feat would be outright broken.

Magic missile. It can target “up to” 5 creatures, but can target a single creature.

If you have a hyperliteral player in your group:

…who argues that choosing to hit one target with all the missiles is different than a spell that can only target one creature. Then, fine. You can always choose to cast a spell at a lower caster level than your maximum. Choose to cast at CL1 and you can only target one creature.

[Trokarr]

I think any GM should feel free to nerf that.

[willuwontu]

Detect Poison + Authoritative + Wayang + Magical Lineage = No Save Cantrip

[Azothath]

Belafon wrote:

Yes, it affects any spell. I really don't know why this feat didn't also get the "If the spell does not allow a save, the target can make a Will save to negate the effect" language like Dazing Spell.

In a home game I would add that language. The feat is outright banned in PFS.

I'd agree that by RAW it is what it is and needs some home game GM fixing. Will save as per Dazing Spell metamagic.

[Vandalier]

I think I'm going to suggest the Will save is still needed perhaps, but I don't plan on abusing.

Maybe my DM will allow it as long as its not cheesy and its thematically appropriate. Once again, thank you everyone for your input <3

[Ryze Kuja]

Quote:

Authoritative Spell (Metamagic)

Your magic holds all the intricacies of Axis’s idealized laws, enforcing their strictures upon your enemies.

Benefit(s): You can alter any spell that targets a single creature to become an authoritative spell. When you cast an authoritative spell, choose one of the following activities to prohibit: move closer to you, move away from you, make a melee weapon attack, make a ranged weapon attack, cast an offensive spell, or cast a non-offensive spell.

A creature that is affected by the spell and fails its saving throw against that spell (if the spell allows a saving throw to resist) cannot perform any action of the selected type on its next turn. An authoritative spell gains the lawful descriptor, and the additional effect is a mind-affecting compulsion effect.

An authoritative spell uses a spell slot 2 levels higher than the spell’s normal spell level. Spells with the chaotic descriptor can’t be authoritative spells.

Quote:

Metamagic Rod, Authoritative

Price varies; Slot none; CL 17th; Weight 5 lbs.

DESCRIPTION

Lesser authoritative metamagic rod 3,000 gp; Greater authoritative metamagic rod 11,000 gp; Authoritative metamagic rod 24,500 gp; Aura strong (no school)

The wielder of this metamagic rod can cast up to three spells per day that constrain the targets as though using the Authoritative Spell feat.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Cost varies: Lesser authoritative metamagic rod 1,500 gp; Authoritative metamagic rod 5,500 gp; Greater authoritative metamagic rod 12,250 gp; Feats Craft Rod, Authoritative Spell*

Quote:

Shocking Grasp

School evocation [electricity]; Level bloodrager 1, magus 1, sorcerer/wizard 1; Bloodline djinni 1; Elemental School air 1, metal 1

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S

EFFECT

Range touch
Target creature or object touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes

DESCRIPTION

Your successful melee touch attack deals 1d6 points of electricity damage per caster level (maximum 5d6). When delivering the jolt, you gain a +3 bonus on attack rolls if the opponent is wearing metal armor (or is carrying a metal weapon or is made of metal).

So, yes, per the rules, Shocking Grasp can be used with an Authoritative Metamagic Rod. Shocking Grasp doesn't have a save, so strictly RAW there isn't a save for the Authoritative portion (although there really ought to be, similar to a Dazing Spell).

However, you need one hand to hold the rod, and as a Magus you need one hand free to use Spell Combat with spells (even spells that don't have Somatic Components). So this little caveat throws a wrench in your gears as being able to do this as a Magus through your weapon. This is a big reason why Tieflings with Prehensile Tail is pretty attractive for a Magus, so that way you can hold the MM Rod with your tail and perform the somatic movements with your free hand. So, I'd figure out how to get a Prehensile Tail or Hair or a 3rd arm from Vestigial Arm in Alchemy or use a Monkey Belt.

[AwesomenessDog]

You can also use the rod as a mace and attack with that.