I'm currently theory crafting a few Summoner builds (my table uses the Free Archetype Variant rule), and one I'm particulary interested in using the Magaambyan Attendant and Halcyon Speaker archetypes.
Both these Archetypes not only offer additional spells, but also some very awesome Metamagic (Yes Synergistic Spell is the reason I made this post). But I'm wondering, can a Summoner even use any Metamagic properly?
So far I always assumed Act Together was something comparable to a "passive skill". Once per turn you do something (like Cast a Spell with 2 actions) and it passively enabled the Eidolon/Summoner to gain a simultaneous action. Instead of it being an "active" skill. In my head I visualize it like this:
A. Metamagic -> (Summoner Cast a Spell + Eidolon Strike) = Act Together -> remaining
B. Metamagic -> Act Together -> (Summoner Cast a Spell + Eidolon Strike) -> remaining
In the first case a Summoner would be able to use Metamagic, just spend an action for the Metamagic, next Cast a Spell with 2 actions trough Act Together and have your Eidolon go at it with the extra action. But in the second case this wouldn't work because of the wording on Metamagic
TL;DR: Is a Summoner able to use Metamagic during Act Together, or is the class locked out from it during it?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The Summoner is perfectly able to use Metamagic feats, just not before Act Together. What you have to do is: Act Together (Metamagic + Eidolon Strike) => Cast a spell. In that case, it always works.
The Summoner is perfectly able to use Metamagic feats, just not before Act Together. What you have to do is: Act Together (Metamagic + Eidolon Strike) => Cast a spell. In that case, it always works.
Wouldn't the Metamagic fade because you used an Eidolon Strike?
I'm a bit worried because of the wording on Metamagic is quite harsh.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Eidolon Strike is performed by your Eidolon, not by you. So your next action is the spell you cast.
A great thanks! That solves my question.
I got so stuck up on Act Together I didn't see the easy way out.
You're welcome!
The Summoner is perfectly able to use Metamagic feats, just not before Act Together. What you have to do is: Act Together (Metamagic + Eidolon Strike) => Cast a spell. In that case, it always works.
Hmm...
Either you or your eidolon takes an action or activity using the same number of actions as Act Together, and the other takes a single action.
OK. That checks out. Even a free action metamagic would still be a single action. 'Single' meaning quantity of one.
A really restrictive GM may try to rule that it says 'single action' which would be an action that has a cost of 1 action. So that would rule out free action metamagic. But the only one of those that I can think of is Quickened Casting. And as I said, this is a really restrictive reading of the rule's text. If the GM makes this ruling, they are trying really hard to cripple your character.
The Eidolon Strike is performed by your Eidolon, not by you. So your next action is the spell you cast.
With this reasoning, you could even change the ordering of things. Metamagic alone first, then Act Together for the Eidolon action and Summoner Spellcasting. The 'next action' that the *Summoner* took was to cast a spell.
If your GM gets persnickety about it, it still works though. Act Together doesn't specify the order that actions are taken by Eidolon and Summoner. The most technically RAW ordering that it enforces is that the multiple action activity must be done first. And since the metamagic is being the single action, it must be taken second. So even counting all actions taken by either Eidolon or Summoner, the ordering of {Eidolon action} -> {Summoner metamagic} -> {Summoner cast spell} still follows the requirements of the metamagic that the next action is to cast a spell.
With this reasoning, you could even change the ordering of things. Metamagic alone first, then Act Together for the Eidolon action and Summoner Spellcasting. The 'next action' that the *Summoner* took was to cast a spell.
Unfortunately not, as the next action you'd take is Act Together. Activities are actions: "There are four types of actions: single actions, activities, reactions, and free actions."
But it's not impactful as you can always take the Metamagic action during Act Together.Also, you're right about free action metamagic. But the only one is only available at level 20 for a Summoner, so I think we can safely ignore it.
With this reasoning, you could even change the ordering of things. Metamagic alone first, then Act Together for the Eidolon action and Summoner Spellcasting. The 'next action' that the *Summoner* took was to cast a spell.Unfortunately not, as the next action you'd take is Act Together. Activities are actions: "There are four types of actions: single actions, activities, reactions, and free actions.
Yeah, fair enough. But again, that reading is only for GMs that are deliberately trying to cause problems for a Summoner player.
Yeah, fair enough. But again, that reading is only for GMs that are deliberately trying to cause problems for a Summoner player.With this reasoning, you could even change the ordering of things. Metamagic alone first, then Act Together for the Eidolon action and Summoner Spellcasting. The 'next action' that the *Summoner* took was to cast a spell.Unfortunately not, as the next action you'd take is Act Together. Activities are actions: "There are four types of actions: single actions, activities, reactions, and free actions.
I'm answering pure RAW. Also, the fact that you can easily use a metamagic feat with Act Together makes me think it's not important in fact. There is a way to make it work per RAW, no need to have a second one and debates about it with your GM.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Woah, I wonder whether it's intended or not.
Didn't notice it before.
If there were no metamagic abilities in the Summoner class and you had to pick up an archetype in order to get any, then you *might* be able to make a case that it is not intended to work.
But since Extend Boost is itself a metamagic ability, I have to assume that it is intended to actually work.
Hmm... I think my last post may have come across as a bit disparaging and rude. I apologize for that.
I am currently also making lunch and not taking enough time to check my wording. I am instead just answering everything literally.
I hadn't thought about whether this was intended or not until HumbleGamer asked that. And my gut-instinct answer to that would be, 'only if there were no metamagic in the Summoner class.'